1947 BOND BREAD and its "imposters"....show us your cards ?

[abctoo]

Originally Posted by phikappapsi

man this has been a lot of words for an "i dunno"

I didn't say "I dunno". As I have repeated said in this Appendix, its purpose is to identify the issues, not resolve them, and that would appear in the main text of this article. I have been researching and drafting for that part a reasonable explanation of how to generally tell Bond Bread cards from Sport Star Subjects cards. People accept the absolute opinion of grading card services as to what is a "Bond Bread" card and spend money based on their false conclusions. With every general rule, there may be exceptions. Your response is appreciated because it indicates the need for a rule without potential exceptions before many will consider the issue has resolution and any change in current identifications will be made.

I specifically requested the posting of precise information which if provided will eliminate such exceptions to a rule and fully define the difference between Bond Bread package insert cards and Sport Star Subject cards. If you have any cards you can guarantee are original Bond Bread insert or Sport Star Subjects cards, please post them. Do not dismiss the prior request for posting of cards as many may not be satisfied with just a general rule.

Thanks, Mike

[tedzan]

For you new members that don't know me, as a kid I collected Sportscards from 1947 to 1952. I returned to this great hobby in 1977. I was fortunate to recover all my
original collection from my youth (which included my original 1947 BOND BREAD cards).
All these years, I have never seen beveled-cornered cards in boxes such as the Sport Star Subjects ones. I have (or had) the SQUARE cornered cards from these boxes,
Baseball and Movie Stars.



Really, it absolutely defies common sense for the BB cards in the Sport Star Subjects boxes to have ROUNDED corners.

What I suspect is that either the original 1947 BOND BREAD cards were "stuffed" into these 4 boxes....OR....the original 1949 SQUARE cornered cards were beveled and
"stuffed" into the 4 boxes. I inquired of other veteran hobbyist; and, they do NOT recall ever seeing this unusual stuff. It appears to me (and others) that this is possibly
a relatively recent "scam"on the hobby.

Why would any one resort to this kind of fraud is anyone's guess. Perhaps, because for a long time the Grading Companies would not grade the 1947 BOND BREAD cards,
and some "genius" thought that this would persuade the Graders to be inclined to grade these cards.

Whatever, I want no part of this shameless scam. I do not accept the legitimacy of ROUNDED cornered cards within Sport Stars Subjects (or Movie Star Subjects) boxes.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[spec]

I'm not quite as ancient as my friend Ted, so I didn't collect these when they were issued, but I have had for many years the four movie star boxed sets (plus another dated 1951) and ALL have rounded corners just like the Bond Bread baseball cards.

[abctoo]

Originally Posted by tedzan

For you new members that don't know me, as a kid I collected Sportscards from 1947 to 1952. I returned to this great hobby in 1977. I was fortunate to recover all my
original collection from my youth (which included my original 1947 BOND BREAD cards).
All these years, I have never seen beveled-cornered cards in boxes such as the Sport Star Subjects ones. I have (or had) the SQUARE cornered cards from these boxes,
Baseball and Movie Stars.



Really, it absolutely defies common sense for the BB cards in the Sport Star Subjects boxes to have ROUNDED corners.

The reason for the rounded corners will be explained in the main text. Just because you haven't seen them does not mean they do not exist. Just yesterday I posted a Bobby Doerr card I had never seen before. It had been identified by the seller as a Bond Bread card. After it arrived, I asked the readers of this thread what it was. Cardinalcollector responded it was a 1975 Sports Heritage collector's edition. I had never heard of the set before. Two other cards from that set also have the same pictures as used in the Bond Bread insert set - those are that set's #SH144 Ralph Kiner and #SH136 Vern Stephens. We want to prove what all of the cards are. In terms of actual proof, which would have more evidentiary value, "I never seen the cards before" or "I have had [them] for many years . . . and ALL have rounded corners just like the Bond Bread baseball cards?" Look at Post #216 of 5-14 2020 above to see a rounded corner Sport Star Subjects set.

Ted, don't give up. We really need your help. You are one of the few people who still has cards that can be proven to have been taken out of Bond Bread packages. Please post the front of each different Bond Bread insert card you have so that we can make the distinction between them and the Sport Star Subjects cards as I suggested earlier today in Post #252.

Thanks, Mike

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by tedzan

All these years, I have never seen beveled-cornered cards in boxes such as the Sport Star Subjects ones. I have (or had) the SQUARE cornered cards from these boxes,
Baseball and Movie Stars.

Really, it absolutely defies common sense for the BB cards in the Sport Star Subjects boxes to have ROUNDED corners.

What I suspect is that either the original 1947 BOND BREAD cards were "stuffed" into these 4 boxes....OR....the original 1949 SQUARE cornered cards were beveled and
"stuffed" into the 4 boxes. I inquired of other veteran hobbyist; and, they do NOT recall ever seeing this unusual stuff.

It appears to me (and others) that this is possibly a relatively recent "scam" on the hobby.

Why would any one resort to this kind of fraud is anyone's guess. Perhaps, because for a long time the Grading Companies would not grade the 1947 BOND BREAD cards,
and some "genius" thought that this would persuade the Graders to be inclined to grade these cards.

Whatever, I want no part of this shameless scam. I do not accept the legitimacy of ROUNDED cornered cards within Sport Stars Subjects (or Movie Star Subjects) boxes.
.

Originally Posted by spec

I'm not quite as ancient as my friend Ted, so I didn't collect these when they were issued, but I have had for many years the four movie star boxed sets (plus another dated 1951) and ALL have rounded corners just like the Bond Bread baseball cards.

Spec

How long ago is....." I have had for many years the four movie star boxed sets " ?


Here are samples from my Movie Star set.....




TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Here are samples from my Movie Star set.....




TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Mike....or, anyone else interested in this stuff.

We are waiting for a logical, common sense explanation as to why anyone (or a Company) would bevel the corners of these cards (which were SQUARE to begin with),
and were intended to be inserted into SQUARE boxes ? ?

So far, your very elaborate presentation has failed to answer this very elementary question.

.

[spec]

Hi Ted,
Since I purchased my Movie Star Subjects long ago and am satisfied that they are authentic and unaltered, I don't require a "logical, common sense explanation" for the rounded corners. However, I would offer this possibility: The firm that printed the Bond Bread cards later contracted to furnish cards of ball players, boxers and movie stars to W.S./N.Y. (Wildman?), using overstock or at least the same setup they used for the Bond cards. Upon reorder, or running out of overstock, they decided it was cheaper (or at least unnecessary) to round the corners. Of course, this is purely conjecture, but it is "logical."

[phikappapsi]

In reverse, I find it nebulous at best to simply assume that any card with Round corners that also happens to be in good condition; is somehow not bond bread but rather a Screen Star Subject card

seems like an awful lot of sizzle for no steak.

I find it perfectly reasonable to assume that some cards from both the SSS and the BB cards were simply sourced from the same 3rd party manufacturer, hence the crossover in images/print/and corner cropping.

[phikappapsi]

Originally Posted by spec

Hi Ted,
However, I would offer this possibility: The firm that printed the Bond Bread cards later contracted to furnish cards of ball players, boxers and movie stars to W.S./N.Y. (Wildman?), using overstock or at least the same setup they used for the Bond cards. Upon reorder, or running out of overstock, they decided it was cheaper (or at least unnecessary) to round the corners. Of course, this is purely conjecture, but it is "logical."

This to me seems like the most logical conclusion. Since it's unlikely that Bond Bread was actually printing their own cards in house; I'd believe it entirely possible the exact same setup was used to produce the SSS cards, at the same manufacturer, and then an equipment or process update changed the format from round to squared on all of the above.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by spec

Hi Ted,
Since I purchased my Movie Star Subjects long ago and am satisfied that they are authentic and unaltered, I don't require a "logical, common sense explanation" for the rounded corners. However, I would offer this possibility: The firm that printed the Bond Bread cards later contracted to furnish cards of ball players, boxers and movie stars to W.S./N.Y. (Wildman?), using overstock or at least the same setup they used for the Bond cards. Upon reorder, or running out of overstock, they decided it was cheaper (or at least unnecessary) to round the corners. Of course, this is purely conjecture, but it is "logical."

Hi spec

When I asked when did you acquire Movie Star Subjects, I was hoping you would state a date (year).
As I am trying to develop a timeline when the Square cards (Sports & Movie Stars) first appeared with Rounded corners. So far, four dates have been reported.

Circa 1949/1950 when the original sets of these B/W Sports cards and Movie Star cards were issued, they were only Square cards....PERIOD !


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[spec]

Ted,
It's been long enough that I don't recall when or where I purchased my movie star sets, but I believe it was about 20 years ago.

[abctoo]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Mike....or, anyone else interested in this stuff.

We are waiting for a logical, common sense explanation as to why anyone (or a Company) would bevel the corners of these cards (which were SQUARE to begin with),
and were intended to be inserted into SQUARE boxes ? ?

So far, your very elaborate presentation has failed to answer this very elementary question.

.

It makes no common sense to me to attribute every Bond Bread look alike that has a white back and rounded corners as a Bond Bread insert card. This has been done for many cards posted in this thread. We cannot dispute Sport Star Subjects sets exist with rounded corners, regardless of when manufactured. It is not common sense to apply an arbitrary definition to something it is not.

Ted, I made a simple request to resolve the issue. If you have not mixed the cards you acquired after you returned to the hobby in 1977 with your original Bond Bread insert cards taken from Bond Bread packages and can still distinguish which are the cards you actually obtained from Bond Bread packages, please post scans of the original insert cards so that the Sport Star Subjects cards with rounded corners can be distinguished from them by the molded lead die-cuts used.

Also, if anyone who has the square cornered Sport Star Subjects set would post that, we would have a basis to determine whether a card being offered is a trimmed corner card from that set.

Of course, the scans need to be of sufficient high quality to show the printing details.

Thanks, Mike

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by abctoo

1st
We cannot dispute Sport Star Subjects sets exist with rounded corners, regardless of when manufactured. It is not common sense to apply an arbitrary definition to something it is not.

2nd
Ted, I made a simple request to resolve the issue. If you have not mixed the cards you acquired after you returned to the hobby in 1977 with your original Bond Bread insert cards taken from Bond Bread packages and can still distinguish which are the cards you actually obtained from Bond Bread packages, please post scans of the original insert cards so that the Sport Star Subjects cards with rounded corners can be distinguished from them by the molded lead die-cuts used.

1st
How come you have NOT addressed the fact that NO collector/dealer has seen SSS boxes containing ROUNDED cornered cards prior to the 1990's ?
I have contacted several of the veteran collectors / dealers whom I have known since the 1970's. They all agree that these ROUNDED cards within
SSS boxes are some thing new that first appeared in the 1990's.

2nd
I already have posted scans throughout this thread of several of my 1947 BOND BREAD cards. Have you bothered to see them ? Yet, you continue
to "bug" me with this request.
Well, forget it !


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[abctoo]

Ted, You missed my point. You said in Post #255, "I returned to this great hobby in 1977. I was fortunate to recover all my original collection from my youth (which included my original 1947 BOND BREAD cards). / All these years, I have never seen beveled-cornered cards in boxes such as the Sport Star Subjects ones."

I have seen every card posted in this thread more than one time including those you posted. Along with a glossy picture of Joe DiMaggio from a Team Photo Pack you posted a Bond Bread insert card with two opposite corners not cut through. The card is an excellent example of the edge and corner die cutting not going completely through the stack of cards sheets being cut.

If you look at the die cutting on the Joe DiMaggio card you will see it comes from the same die cutter as used on each card of the four series of the Sport Star Subjects set issued with rounded corners.

Again, I have seen every card you have posted in this thread. It is unclear to me which of those cards you obtained from original Bond Bread packages and which you obtained after you returned to the hobby years later.

I am concerned that since you had not seen a die cut corner on a Sport Star Subjects card, that cards from that set are being misattributed as Bond Bread insert cards.

It's not difficult to look at the cards you already posted, but how do I know which of those you obtained directly from Bond Bread packages and which you did not?. That difference goes to the heart of distinguishing the two sets.

If you are unwilling or unable to post cards that you can definitively say you obtained from Bond Bread packages, would you at least identify which of the photos you have posted over the past 12 years are of original cards you obtained from bread packages and did not acquire at a later date?

As to the rounded corner Sport Star Subjects, most dealers have never heard of the square corner set. It's a little premature to definitively rule out the existence of a rounded corner set before 1980 when some have indicated they purchased one in 1947.

Thanks, Mike

[griffon512]

Originally Posted by tedzan

For you new members that don't know me, as a kid I collected Sportscards from 1947 to 1952. I returned to this great hobby in 1977. I was fortunate to recover all my
original collection from my youth (which included my original 1947 BOND BREAD cards).
All these years, I have never seen beveled-cornered cards in boxes such as the Sport Star Subjects ones. I have (or had) the SQUARE cornered cards from these boxes,
Baseball and Movie Stars.



Really, it absolutely defies common sense for the BB cards in the Sport Star Subjects boxes to have ROUNDED corners.

What I suspect is that either the original 1947 BOND BREAD cards were "stuffed" into these 4 boxes....OR....the original 1949 SQUARE cornered cards were beveled and
"stuffed" into the 4 boxes. I inquired of other veteran hobbyist; and, they do NOT recall ever seeing this unusual stuff. It appears to me (and others) that this is possibly
a relatively recent "scam"on the hobby.

Why would any one resort to this kind of fraud is anyone's guess. Perhaps, because for a long time the Grading Companies would not grade the 1947 BOND BREAD cards,
and some "genius" thought that this would persuade the Graders to be inclined to grade these cards.

Whatever, I want no part of this shameless scam. I do not accept the legitimacy of ROUNDED cornered cards within Sport Stars Subjects (or Movie Star Subjects) boxes.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Thank you Ted. Well said.

Isn’t it possible individuals are simply clipping the corners off of the cards that originated from the Sports Star Subjects set and passing them off as Bond Breads?

[abctoo]

Here's a scan of the fronts of three cards and the backs of three others from my packaged Screen Star Subjects set. Do you need to see more? You be the judge.