1947 BOND BREAD and its "imposters"....show us your cards ?

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by tedzan

All these years, I have never seen beveled-cornered cards in boxes such as the Sport Star Subjects ones. I have (or had) the SQUARE cornered cards from these boxes,
Baseball and Movie Stars.

Really, it absolutely defies common sense for the BB cards in the Sport Star Subjects boxes to have ROUNDED corners.

What I suspect is that either the original 1947 BOND BREAD cards were "stuffed" into these 4 boxes....OR....the original 1949 SQUARE cornered cards were beveled and
"stuffed" into the 4 boxes. I inquired of other veteran hobbyist; and, they do NOT recall ever seeing this unusual stuff.

It appears to me (and others) that this is possibly a relatively recent "scam" on the hobby.

Why would any one resort to this kind of fraud is anyone's guess. Perhaps, because for a long time the Grading Companies would not grade the 1947 BOND BREAD cards,
and some "genius" thought that this would persuade the Graders to be inclined to grade these cards.

Whatever, I want no part of this shameless scam. I do not accept the legitimacy of ROUNDED cornered cards within Sport Stars Subjects (or Movie Star Subjects) boxes.
.

Originally Posted by spec

I'm not quite as ancient as my friend Ted, so I didn't collect these when they were issued, but I have had for many years the four movie star boxed sets (plus another dated 1951) and ALL have rounded corners just like the Bond Bread baseball cards.

Spec

How long ago is....." I have had for many years the four movie star boxed sets " ?


Here are samples from my Movie Star set.....




TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Here are samples from my Movie Star set.....




TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Mike....or, anyone else interested in this stuff.

We are waiting for a logical, common sense explanation as to why anyone (or a Company) would bevel the corners of these cards (which were SQUARE to begin with),
and were intended to be inserted into SQUARE boxes ? ?

So far, your very elaborate presentation has failed to answer this very elementary question.

.

[spec]

Hi Ted,
Since I purchased my Movie Star Subjects long ago and am satisfied that they are authentic and unaltered, I don't require a "logical, common sense explanation" for the rounded corners. However, I would offer this possibility: The firm that printed the Bond Bread cards later contracted to furnish cards of ball players, boxers and movie stars to W.S./N.Y. (Wildman?), using overstock or at least the same setup they used for the Bond cards. Upon reorder, or running out of overstock, they decided it was cheaper (or at least unnecessary) to round the corners. Of course, this is purely conjecture, but it is "logical."

[phikappapsi]

In reverse, I find it nebulous at best to simply assume that any card with Round corners that also happens to be in good condition; is somehow not bond bread but rather a Screen Star Subject card

seems like an awful lot of sizzle for no steak.

I find it perfectly reasonable to assume that some cards from both the SSS and the BB cards were simply sourced from the same 3rd party manufacturer, hence the crossover in images/print/and corner cropping.

[phikappapsi]

Originally Posted by spec

Hi Ted,
However, I would offer this possibility: The firm that printed the Bond Bread cards later contracted to furnish cards of ball players, boxers and movie stars to W.S./N.Y. (Wildman?), using overstock or at least the same setup they used for the Bond cards. Upon reorder, or running out of overstock, they decided it was cheaper (or at least unnecessary) to round the corners. Of course, this is purely conjecture, but it is "logical."

This to me seems like the most logical conclusion. Since it's unlikely that Bond Bread was actually printing their own cards in house; I'd believe it entirely possible the exact same setup was used to produce the SSS cards, at the same manufacturer, and then an equipment or process update changed the format from round to squared on all of the above.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by spec

Hi Ted,
Since I purchased my Movie Star Subjects long ago and am satisfied that they are authentic and unaltered, I don't require a "logical, common sense explanation" for the rounded corners. However, I would offer this possibility: The firm that printed the Bond Bread cards later contracted to furnish cards of ball players, boxers and movie stars to W.S./N.Y. (Wildman?), using overstock or at least the same setup they used for the Bond cards. Upon reorder, or running out of overstock, they decided it was cheaper (or at least unnecessary) to round the corners. Of course, this is purely conjecture, but it is "logical."

Hi spec

When I asked when did you acquire Movie Star Subjects, I was hoping you would state a date (year).
As I am trying to develop a timeline when the Square cards (Sports & Movie Stars) first appeared with Rounded corners. So far, four dates have been reported.

Circa 1949/1950 when the original sets of these B/W Sports cards and Movie Star cards were issued, they were only Square cards....PERIOD !


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[spec]

Ted,
It's been long enough that I don't recall when or where I purchased my movie star sets, but I believe it was about 20 years ago.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by spec

Ted,
It's been long enough that I don't recall when or where I purchased my movie star sets, but I believe it was about 20 years ago.

Thanks, spec

That date is very consistent with the other dates that have been reported, so far.

Take care,


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[abctoo]

The 1947 Homogenized Bond Bread inserts and Cards and Photos from the era with like and similar pictures.

APPENDIX A – Part Five (Working)

5. Perforated printed two-sided cards with Sports, Hollywood and Cowboys pictured.

This set consists of 48 cards printed on two sheets of 24 each. Twenty two of the cards per sheet have pictures on both sides. The two others were printed with a picture on one side and half of the sheet description in text on the other. A look at that side of a sheet with description placed right-side up will show the sheet has three vertical rows of perforations and five horizontal running fully through the sheet with its edges imperforate (straight edges). Thus the corner cards are perforated on two adjoining sides, while edge cards are perforated on 3 sides , and those in the middle perforated all around (all four sides). The three side perforated cards that are not perforated on a short side come from the top and bottom of the sheet, while those not perforated on the long side are cards from the left and right sides of the sheet. Again, if looking at the side with the descriptive text reading rightside up, the two adjoining text backs appear in the middle of the second row from the bottom as part of the bottom twelve cards all facing rightside up. The upper twelve cards are printed up-side down to the bottom half , so that if you turned that side of the sheet 180 degrees they would be right-side up at the bottom with the 12 containing the descriptive text upside down.

The most famous card from this set is the one that appeared in a 2011 Bob Lemke blog. The unidentified card he pictured is Randolph Scott with the other side the righthand half of the printed descriptive text. That card was rubbered stamped “HESS SHOES.” Bob Lemke's picture has been used by many since to describe the set and thereby is sometimes mistakenly named the “Hess Shoes Set.”



Description text cards were issued without the “HESS SHOES” stamping. Other than a duplication of the exact picture provided by Lemke, I have been unable to find another one of the same card or any other card with the “HESS SHOES” stamping. That does not mean that Hess Shoes was not actively engaging in the promotion of similar pictures at other times. Shown below are part of a Hess Shoes pre-WWII promotion.












We have reconstructed one of the two 24 card sheets of the two-sided printed perforated cards and are working on the second. Below are scans of cards that we cannot definitively attribute to its other side. These pictures below may include both the front and the back of the same card, but again we cannot say which are matching or which pictures may be missing. In other cases, the scans need to be upgraded. I would personally appreciate anyone who will match any of these cards to a picture or provide a picture of a missing side for any of the pictured cards.








More on other sets to come.

Copyright 2020, by Michael Fried, P.O. Box 27521, Oakland, California 94602-0521

[abctoo]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Mike....or, anyone else interested in this stuff.

We are waiting for a logical, common sense explanation as to why anyone (or a Company) would bevel the corners of these cards (which were SQUARE to begin with),
and were intended to be inserted into SQUARE boxes ? ?

So far, your very elaborate presentation has failed to answer this very elementary question.

.

It makes no common sense to me to attribute every Bond Bread look alike that has a white back and rounded corners as a Bond Bread insert card. This has been done for many cards posted in this thread. We cannot dispute Sport Star Subjects sets exist with rounded corners, regardless of when manufactured. It is not common sense to apply an arbitrary definition to something it is not.

Ted, I made a simple request to resolve the issue. If you have not mixed the cards you acquired after you returned to the hobby in 1977 with your original Bond Bread insert cards taken from Bond Bread packages and can still distinguish which are the cards you actually obtained from Bond Bread packages, please post scans of the original insert cards so that the Sport Star Subjects cards with rounded corners can be distinguished from them by the molded lead die-cuts used.

Also, if anyone who has the square cornered Sport Star Subjects set would post that, we would have a basis to determine whether a card being offered is a trimmed corner card from that set.

Of course, the scans need to be of sufficient high quality to show the printing details.

Thanks, Mike

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by abctoo

1st
We cannot dispute Sport Star Subjects sets exist with rounded corners, regardless of when manufactured. It is not common sense to apply an arbitrary definition to something it is not.

2nd
Ted, I made a simple request to resolve the issue. If you have not mixed the cards you acquired after you returned to the hobby in 1977 with your original Bond Bread insert cards taken from Bond Bread packages and can still distinguish which are the cards you actually obtained from Bond Bread packages, please post scans of the original insert cards so that the Sport Star Subjects cards with rounded corners can be distinguished from them by the molded lead die-cuts used.

1st
How come you have NOT addressed the fact that NO collector/dealer has seen SSS boxes containing ROUNDED cornered cards prior to the 1990's ?
I have contacted several of the veteran collectors / dealers whom I have known since the 1970's. They all agree that these ROUNDED cards within
SSS boxes are some thing new that first appeared in the 1990's.

2nd
I already have posted scans throughout this thread of several of my 1947 BOND BREAD cards. Have you bothered to see them ? Yet, you continue
to "bug" me with this request.
Well, forget it !


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[abctoo]

Ted, You missed my point. You said in Post #255, "I returned to this great hobby in 1977. I was fortunate to recover all my original collection from my youth (which included my original 1947 BOND BREAD cards). / All these years, I have never seen beveled-cornered cards in boxes such as the Sport Star Subjects ones."

I have seen every card posted in this thread more than one time including those you posted. Along with a glossy picture of Joe DiMaggio from a Team Photo Pack you posted a Bond Bread insert card with two opposite corners not cut through. The card is an excellent example of the edge and corner die cutting not going completely through the stack of cards sheets being cut.

If you look at the die cutting on the Joe DiMaggio card you will see it comes from the same die cutter as used on each card of the four series of the Sport Star Subjects set issued with rounded corners.

Again, I have seen every card you have posted in this thread. It is unclear to me which of those cards you obtained from original Bond Bread packages and which you obtained after you returned to the hobby years later.

I am concerned that since you had not seen a die cut corner on a Sport Star Subjects card, that cards from that set are being misattributed as Bond Bread insert cards.

It's not difficult to look at the cards you already posted, but how do I know which of those you obtained directly from Bond Bread packages and which you did not?. That difference goes to the heart of distinguishing the two sets.

If you are unwilling or unable to post cards that you can definitively say you obtained from Bond Bread packages, would you at least identify which of the photos you have posted over the past 12 years are of original cards you obtained from bread packages and did not acquire at a later date?

As to the rounded corner Sport Star Subjects, most dealers have never heard of the square corner set. It's a little premature to definitively rule out the existence of a rounded corner set before 1980 when some have indicated they purchased one in 1947.

Thanks, Mike

[itjclarke]

Originally Posted by abctoo

Ted, You missed my point. You said in Post #255, "I returned to this great hobby in 1977. I was fortunate to recover all my original collection from my youth (which included my original 1947 BOND BREAD cards). / All these years, I have never seen beveled-cornered cards in boxes such as the Sport Star Subjects ones."

I have seen every card posted in this thread more than one time including those you posted. Along with a glossy picture of Joe DiMaggio from a Team Photo Pack you posted a Bond Bread insert card with two opposite corners not cut through. The card is an excellent example of the edge and corner die cutting not going completely through the stack of cards sheets being cut.

If you look at the die cutting on the Joe DiMaggio card you will see it comes from the same die cutter as used on each card of the four series of the Sport Star Subjects set issued with rounded corners.

Again, I have seen every card you have posted in this thread. It is unclear to me which of those cards you obtained from original Bond Bread packages and which you obtained after you returned to the hobby years later.

I am concerned that since you had not seen a die cut corner on a Sport Star Subjects card, that cards from that set are being misattributed as Bond Bread insert cards.

It's not difficult to look at the cards you already posted, but how do I know which of those you obtained directly from Bond Bread packages and which you did not?. That difference goes to the heart of distinguishing the two sets.

If you are unwilling or unable to post cards that you can definitively say you obtained from Bond Bread packages, would you at least identify which of the photos you have posted over the past 12 years are of original cards you obtained from bread packages and did not acquire at a later date?

As to the rounded corner Sport Star Subjects, most dealers have never heard of the square corner set. It's a little premature to definitively rule out the existence of a rounded corner set before 1980 when some have indicated they purchased one in 1947.

Thanks, Mike

All due respect as it seems you’re trying to add value, but the tone of these posts is grating to me. Seems you’re challenging Ted and putting onus on he and others to prove your theory by posting high resolution scans. Guys like Ted have freely provided input from their research for years, and I think that work is universally appreciated.

I have a headache from reading, trying to interpret the recent posts, but still don’t see clear proof the rounded corner cards sold on eBay actually came from those boxes. Boxes, like cigarette packs (often displayed here) can be re-packaged with cards for display, and sold. Perhaps that happened here.

[abctoo]

Originally Posted by itjclarke

All due respect as it seems you’re trying to add value, but the tone of these posts is grating to me. Seems you’re challenging Ted and putting onus on he and others to prove your theory by posting high resolution scans. Guys like Ted have freely provided input from their research for years, and I think that work is universally appreciated.

I have a headache from reading, trying to interpret the recent posts, but still don’t see clear proof the rounded corner cards sold on eBay actually came from those boxes. Boxes, like cigarette packs (often displayed here) can be re-packaged with cards for display, and sold. Perhaps that happened here.

Ted has done an exceptional effort to raise the issues of Bond Bread set and its look-alikes and has contributed much elsewhere to the understanding of obscure cards. His completion of the T206 set with Carolina Brights (correction added) backs is a task none even contemplated could be done. We are all thankful for his efforts.

My concern is that several major auction houses (not eBay) have offered auctions lots over the years which they titled as Bond Bread cards, but both in the pictures they provided and in the text indicated the cards came from Sport Star Subjects boxes. Even today, you can't find the Sport Star Subjects set (square of rounded corners) mentioned in a catalog. OldCardboard doesn't but says for the Bond Bread insert set that it exists with both square and rounded corners, and to compound the matter says that cards with many square and rounded corners exist in high grade. Wouldn't it be nice to know what they are talking about?

My quires to Ted are not to challenge him, but to begin a real effort based on objective fact to tell Bond Bread insert cards apart from the cards in the Sport Star Subjects set.

I'm sorry if it seems like I am being overly critical of Ted. I am not. Without a clear picture of what is a Bond Bread insert and what came from a Sport Star Subjects set, many have been misled and will continue to be misled into believing what they have is not actually what they have. I think that dispelling such belief is part of the intent of this thread.

I hope this does not give more of a headache, but the issue has to be resolved.

Thanks, Mike