Best lefty off all time? My vote is Koufax!

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by cammb

After reading the last couple of threads I have changed my mind. I don't think he was the best left handler in baseball, but rather a mediocre pitcher who happened to pitch in a park that only made him great and only him great and all of the players and sportswriters of his time must have eyesight trouble and they raised the pitchers mound for him and expanded baseball teams just so he can dominate them. You're right he's a bum.

Because that's exactly what I said.

Nice strawman.

Koufax would have been a marginal HOFer had his home park not been Dodger Stadium. Obviously that is the same as saying he was a bum.

If he doesn't have the injury and is able to have a few more really good years, even without Dodger Stadium helping him he is a first ballot HOFer.

The fact is that he was greatly helped by his home field AND he had an unfortunately too short prime due to injury. Even with his shortened career, "Road Only Koufax" still likely would have been a marginal HOFer. So with everything going against him he still likely would have been in.

But that's not the debate of this thread. The debate here is greatest lefty ever. Koufax road stats tell me even in his prime you cannot make that case, let alone the fact that his prime was so tragically short.

Now go find another strawman to argue against. And don't let your dumb show so easily it's unbecoming.

[TUM301]

I`m going with Grove basically from what`s been written and the praising of him from some of the greatest hitters of all time. Koufax had one of the greatest stretches ever, but there has to be something said about longevity. On a side note the 2 "must see" hurlers over my past 50 years of being a fan, Ryan and Pedro. When Pedro had a start here in Boston it was must see T V.

[timn1]

"The debate here is greatest lefty ever. Koufax road stats tell me even in his prime you cannot make that case, let alone the fact that his prime was so tragically short."

NO ONE has said Koufax wasn't an amazing pitcher in his prime. Greatest ever, that's a completely different kettle o' fish.

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by timn1

"The debate here is greatest lefty ever. Koufax road stats tell me even in his prime you cannot make that case, let alone the fact that his prime was so tragically short."

NO ONE has said Koufax wasn't an amazing pitcher in his prime. Greatest ever, that's a completely different kettle o' fish.

Yes pretty much. Yet there are some nimrods who insist that if someone has statistically valid reasons why Sandy Koufax isn't the greatest left hander of all time then that means we must think he was "a bum".

Because of course.

[jgannon]

Originally Posted by btcarfagno

Because that's exactly what I said.

Nice strawman.

Koufax would have been a marginal HOFer had his home park not been Dodger Stadium. Obviously that is the same as saying he was a bum.

If he doesn't have the injury and is able to have a few more really good years, even without Dodger Stadium helping him he is a first ballot HOFer.

The fact is that he was greatly helped by his home field AND he had an unfortunately too short prime due to injury. Even with his shortened career, "Road Only Koufax" still likely would have been a marginal HOFer. So with everything going against him he still likely would have been in.

But that's not the debate of this thread. The debate here is greatest lefty ever. Koufax road stats tell me even in his prime you cannot make that case, let alone the fact that his prime was so tragically short.

Now go find another strawman to argue against. And don't let your dumb show so easily it's unbecoming.

What's with the attitude and why make things personal? First of all, he wasn't quoting you and his post came after a number of other posts, some of which were supporting the idea of numbers over "feelings". No one was saying you called Koufax a bum.

But it's disingenuous to say that you're not knocking Koufax when you use say things like his "video game numbers were a product of his park" and "Chavez Ravine aided Koufax is a legend".

While Koufax's contemporaries (Drysdale, Podres, etc.) may have had home/away splits that show they did better at home, they don't come close to his numbers. He had to be a damn good pitcher to post those numbers. I have argued on this thread that he changed his approach and style before he pitched in Chavez, and that if he hadn't done that, he would not have done as well as he did at home or on the road during the 1963-1966 run.

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by jgannon

What's with the attitude and why make things personal? First of all, he wasn't quoting you and his post came after a number of other posts, some of which were supporting the idea of numbers over "feelings". No one was saying you called Koufax a bum.

But it's disingenuous to say that you're not knocking Koufax when you use say things like his "video game numbers were a product of his park" and "Chavez Ravine aided Koufax is a legend".

While Koufax's contemporaries (Drysdale, Podres, etc.) may have had home/away splits that show they did better at home, they don't come close to his numbers. He had to be a damn good pitcher to post those numbers. I have argued on this thread that he changed his approach and style before he pitched in Chavez, and that if he hadn't done that, he would not have done as well as he did at home or on the road during the 1963-1966 run.

His prior two responses in the thread were directly to me but this one wasn't? It had to do with the point I was making so it was directed to my point at a minimum. And I have little patience for strawman arguments.

It's ok to knock someone without disagreeing that the player was tremendous. If bringing up facts "knocks" a player so be it. Koufax was a very good pitcher regardless of where he pitched. Quite possibly the best in baseball over that five year period even after adjusting for park factors. That said, the park is the reason he isn't just thought of as a borderline HOFer. That is simply a statistical fact. He put up really good numbers away from Dodger Stadium. Maybe the best in the sport over that period. But when you add his Dodger Stadium numbers he became other worldly. He did put up video game numbers at home over this period. His splits are insane. It's a statistical fact that is rarely brought up with him for some reason.

He must have figured something out. Even away from Chavez he became likely the best in the sport for the next five year period. That is also statistical fact. It is possible to understand that, and to understand that he likely would have been a HOFer even if his home games weren't where they were, while also understanding that he isn't the untouchable demi-god statistically that everyone wants him to be. He was a better pitcher than his Dodger teammates. Over that five year period he probably was the best in the sport just doubling his road numbers. But his home road splits are what they are and I'm not going to bury my head in the sand and pretend they don't make any difference at all. Because they absolutely do.