Class action suit filed against PSA, PWCC and Probstein

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by 68Hawk

Soooo, you're confident you could tell me if a 33 Goudey had had a light pencil mark removed in either 39'/69'/99' for the betterment of appearance as opposed to showing wear/rub on an area of the card from certain kinds of handling?
Or if an oversized card had been cut down in 1910 to fit an album, cut down more recently (say mid 80's) to fake either the buyers from catalogs or trade shows or of more recent value - the graders, or just was a vagary of the cutting processes used at the time? You'd put up 20K of your own money on the judgement? What if you're proved wrong the first time, will you put up another 20k and have a second go?
What about a 52 topps that shows a 'thinner' measure on one corner of the card.....is that a corner that has been layed down more recently to better a grade or was it in a screw down a little unequally and one screw tightened a little more heavily than the others?

What about the shiny stuff? Can you tell a card that has been shaved down so minutely with a professional paper cutter it still falls within spec?

Like I said, authentic versus reprint is not too difficult for a seasoned collector.
Alteration that is overwhelming eg chemical residue that shows in black light, bat wing corners etc and many others are quickly identified.

As Leon points out, it's the egregious misses by grading companies that causes the most consternation.
But that bothers me less. Crazy misses will be mostly rectified by the grading companies.....mislabelled flips, missed creases or paper loss, etc.

Hand cut versus factory is not so obvious and it's one of those that hobbyists would argue over. Sure, we could all just take your word Leon on this one (and we'd be right doing so in this instance above) and that's fine, but would you be happy for every submitter to get the same benefit of belief that their word simply confers to the grading outcome?

Millions upon millions upon millions upon millions of grading situations.
If you nitpick and think your estimations are so much more accurate than the graders, then welcome to the hobby. Everyone thinks they grade more accurately than their fellow hobbyists.

Again, you could never buy anything at a Sotheby's auction where you were relying on their expertise if you brought the same scrutiny to their judgement as is brought to the card collecting world.

If you don't like graded, then buy the card you fall in love with and if it's in a slab take it out and enjoy it that way. Don't bitch and moan and make perfect the enemy of good.
But If you quite enjoy the way a rectangular unscratched clear lucite slab frames a piece of sports cardboard as i do, kind of like a beautiful frame gives painted canvas a mount to speak from, and if you love being able to handle slabs and enjoy the cards without care of doing damage - even tossed into the hands of your 4 year old, and if the fact they are protected from wear so that future generations can enjoy them....
Well, then you enjoy graded cards.
Yes the grades are an unfortunate byplay. It is what it is.
A market can be established with this 1-10 scale so that copies of the same item can have relative value to eachother and can pass confidently between the hands of collectors.

I love the hobby just as it is, and I'd love it slabbed without grades.
The significantly aggrieved who complain should find a different hobby, as it aint going back and it will never reach the levels of perfection in grading you seemingly desire.

OK then...

[68Hawk]

Originally Posted by perezfan

OK then...

If that scan is correct - and it doesn't look right with both sides looking distorted - do you believe if returned to PSA they wouldn't correct the mistake?

I've owned maybe 7-800 cards over the last 30 years.
I've been selective in creating a collection that reflects my tastes.
I've probably looked at 4-5 million cards on line and in person in that time.
Within my own collection I'd nitpick some of the cards within a half to full grade, but would accept that I was nitpicking and perhaps not fully availed of the information they used as criteria for assigning the grade.
Over the other 5 million, there's probably a few hundred I was shocked with the grade given.
The other 4, 999, 800 fell in to the catagory of - ok, well, I guess that's around the mark.

To me, that's a pass mark.
You could pull up every missed grade card, and then I'd ask you to at the same time include every card seemingly fairly graded that you could find.

The rows of accurately graded cards would stream seemingly endlessly until you hit upon that incorrect one.

Look, it's fine if this is the cross you wish to burn grading on.
I think you're making the evidence fit your hypothesis, as opposed to displaying ALL the evidence and then fairly determining what the failure rate is.

Again, at least five million cards I've looked at over the last 30 years and my impression has much more strongly aligned with the vast majority conforming to my expectations with a tiny minority obviously cock ups.

But, everyone is able to make their own determinations.
I'm just suggesting that you will not undo this made pie, you can either eat it and spit out the annoying pits occasionally left in it, or just don't partake.

Take that PSA9 if you have it in hand (and it really looks like the scan suggests) and put it in a mailer and send it to PSA. I have a feeling they'll make it right so to speak.

If it's corruption you wish to chase down, good luck.
This country is built on it.

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by 68Hawk

If that scan is correct - and it doesn't look right with both sides looking distorted - do you believe if returned to PSA they wouldn't correct the mistake?

I've owned maybe 5-600 cards over the last 30 years.
I've been selective in creating a collection that reflects my tastes.
I've probably looked at 4-5 million cards on line and in person in that time.
Within my own collection I'd nitpick some of the cards within a half to full grade, but would accept that I was nitpicking and perhaps not fully availed of the information they used as criteria for assigning the grade.
Over the other 5 million, there's probably a few hundred I was shocked with the grade given.
The other 4, 999, 800 fell in to the catagory of - ok, well, I guess that's around the mark.

To me, that's a pass mark.
You could pull up every missed grade card, and then I'd ask you to at the same time include every card seemingly fairly graded that you could find.

The rows of accurately graded cards would stream seemingly endlessly until you hit upon that incorrect one.

Look, it's fine if this is the cross you wish to burn grading on.
I think you're making the evidence fit your hypothesis, as opposed to displaying ALL the evidence and then fairly determining what the failure rate is.

Again, at least five million cards I've looked at over the last 30 years and my impression has much more strongly aligned with the vast majority conforming to my expectations with a tiny minority obviously cock ups.

But, everyone is able to make their own determinations.
I'm just suggesting that you will not undo this made pie, you can either eat it and spit out the annoying pits occasionally left in it, or just don't partake.

Take that PSA9 if you have it in hand (and it really looks like the scan suggests) and put it in a mailer and send it to PSA. I have a feeling they'll make it right so to speak.

If it's corruption you wish to chase down, good luck.
This country is built on it.

But getting it right is what they advertise they can do, what you pay them for, and what they are supposed to do. Period. And, I have looked at a lot of cards too. I guess we looked at different cards because I haven't seen what you say you saw. That's fine. Doesn't matter. As for the corruption statement, I agree, but I probably come from a very different perspective than you do. That's fine too. That's why we have we have a Constitution, freedom of speech, and, hopefully, a democratic process where we all have the right to vote and make a difference.

[68Hawk]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

But getting it right is what they advertise they can do, what you pay them for, and what they are supposed to do. Period. And, I have looked at a lot of cards too. I guess we looked at different cards because I haven't seen what you say you saw. That's fine. Doesn't matter. As for the corruption statement, I agree, but I probably come from a very different perspective than you do. That's fine too. That's why we have we have a Constitution, freedom of speech, and, hopefully, a democratic process where we all have the right to vote and make a difference.

I'm not sure I've seen where these grading companies say they are right...?
They are selling opinions, not facts.

I'm with you on what you wrote last, but don't believe in this country any longer.
There are now two sets of facts to explain daily life in America, and being a facts guy this just doesn't compute for me. When my kids are done High School I'm moving somewhere, probably back to Australia.

My cards go with me, so one day there will be an awesome Auction that announces a 'find' in Australia LOL.....bid strong, the cards are all hand picked to be accurately represented and my kids could use the cash.

[Michael B]

Originally Posted by 68Hawk

I'm not sure I've seen where these grading companies say they are right...?
They are selling opinions, not facts.

I'm with you on what you wrote last, but don't believe in this country any longer.
There are now two sets of facts to explain daily life in America, and being a facts guy this just doesn't compute for me. When my kids are done High School I'm moving somewhere, probably back to Australia.

My cards go with me, so one day there will be an awesome Auction that announces a 'find' in Australia LOL.....bid strong, the cards are all hand picked to be accurately represented and my kids could use the cash.

Where in Australia? My favorite place is Palm Cove in QLD. My wife and I were married at Balmoral Park in North Sydney.

[68Hawk]

Originally Posted by Michael B

Where in Australia? My favorite place is Palm Cove in QLD. My wife and I were married at Balmoral Park in North Sydney.

Oh mate, Palm Cove is unbeliebably beautiful.....AND HOT.
I'm jealous, that's absolute G_d's country. Too many crocs these days up North so can't take the kids and let them run around, serious problem as these prehistoric monsters swim out to sea and then 16ft of chomp turns up in the shallows of the beach.

I'm a Melbourne boy but love Sydney too.
Probably end up back where I have most family and friends.

[Michael B]

Originally Posted by 68Hawk

Oh mate, Palm Cove is unbeliebably beautiful.....AND HOT.
I'm jealous, that's absolute G_d's country. Too many crocs these days up North so can't take the kids and let them run around, serious problem as these prehistoric monsters swim out to sea and then 16ft of chomp turns up in the shallows of the beach.

I'm a Melbourne boy but love Sydney too.
Probably end up back where I have most family and friends.

Good on ya. I have been very fortunate to have visited Sydney 4 times, including the 2000 Olympics where I rented a condo for a month near Darling Harbour, in Pyrmont. I have also visited Brisbane where I delivered an ebay purchase to someone. Probably a record for in person delivery of an ebay purchase. Went to the Lone Pine Koala Sanctuary, Mt Coot tha Botanical Gardens and got Cathy Freeman at a book signing. Farther up north I have been to Cairns, Kuranda and Port Douglas. I have snorkeled on the Great Barrier Reef 3 times. They give you more freedom if you snorkel rather than scuba. It also helps if you can free dive a bit. One of the times I got stung by some blue bottles or the such, but it was like a mosquito bite, no big deal. I took my wife out there on our honeymoon. She was a bit scared of sharks and the such but said it was one of the greatest things she ever did. They were filming the Matthew McConaughey/Kate Hudson movie 'Fools Gold' while we were there though we did not see any of it. There is a scene in a tropical bar during the daytime that is a bar on the Esplanade in Palm Cove.

Next trip there I want to go to Sydney (wife wants to see Bondi, I prefer Manly), Red Centre to see Uluru, Melbourne and Palm Cove. Being an Olympic historian I want to see the MCG. I have a few million Hilton Honor points so it would only be the cost of flights.