Negro Leagues Recognized As Major

Mark17 · #1 12-17-2020, 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Nasty Nati

I meant besides the players that eventually played in the MLB. I believe there aren't any.

I think a good argument can be made that the pitching in the NL wasn't great. After Jackie broke the color line in 1947, it took 18 years before a black pitcher won 20 games (Mudcat Grant and Bob Gibson in 1965.) It was so rare for a black pitcher to win 20 in the Majors that Grant wrote a book about them titled "The Black Aces." I have a signed copy.

Grant, Gibson, Earl Wilson, Jenkins, Downing, Blue, Richard, Norris, Gooden, Stewart, and in 2005, Dontrelle Willis. In the 57 years since 1947, there were only 11 black 20 game winners. Of these 11, only 4 did it more than once (Gibson, Jenkins, Blue, Stewart.)

So for all the talk about the great black hitters back in the day, the pitching, by Major League standards, was much less impressive. And that had to help the hitters.

Kenny Cole · #2 12-17-2020, 10:34 PM

Don Newcombe won 20 games in 1951, 20 games in 1955, and 27 games in 1956.

Mark17 · #3 12-17-2020, 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

Don Newcombe won 20 games in 1951, 20 games in 1955, and 27 games in 1956.

You're right. Looking again at the index of Grant's book, Sam Jones also did it in 1959. So that makes 13 in 57 years, 5 doing it more than once.

I think my point stands - the black hitters seem to have been well ahead of the pitchers.

oldeboo · #4 12-17-2020, 11:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark17

I think my point stands - the black hitters seem to have been well ahead of the pitchers.

I could make a pretty decent argument that the best hitter of each decade from the 1960s onward, when integration really took hold, was a person that had a skin pigmentation other than white. (I'll give it to Trout over the last decade) Does this delegitimize all Major League statistics prior to integration? The Negro League hitters may have been ahead of the Negro League pitchers, but wouldn't it make sense that the Negro League hitters were likely ahead of Major League pitchers before integration as well?

There are many things that have impacted stats through the years that they all require an asterisks next to them when comparing. You can't compare steroid era, war years, dead-ball era, pre-integration, and Negro League to name a few. The stats deserve merit on their own.

jason.1969 · #5 12-18-2020, 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark17

You're right. Looking again at the index of Grant's book, Sam Jones also did it in 1959. So that makes 13 in 57 years, 5 doing it more than once.

I think my point stands - the black hitters seem to have been well ahead of the pitchers.

Not a strong take. Research the unwritten rules governing black pitchers in the early days of MLB integration.

t206fix · #6 12-18-2020, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jason.1969

Not a strong take. Research the unwritten rules governing black pitchers in the early days of MLB integration.

Jason, would love to hear more about this. Where do I look?

jason.1969 · #7 12-18-2020, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by t206fix

Jason, would love to hear more about this. Where do I look?

One example relates to belief that Black men weren�t cerebral enough to pitch, catch, or manage. Here is Bob Kendrick on the topic�

��-

�Historically, pitchers and catchers did not transition from the Negro Leagues,�� Kendrick said. �There were great arms in the Negro Leagues, and we had great catchers from Josh Gibson to Roy Campanella, but that was considered a cerebral position. And the general consensus back then was that these men weren�t smart enough to play in the major leagues.

��

Same line of racist thinking limited Black Quarterbacks in football and managers/GMs in several sports.

Additionally, Black pitchers were hesitant to throw inside vs white batters out of fear their lives or careers would be at risk if they injured a white player.

t206fix · #8 12-18-2020, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jason.1969

One example relates to belief that Black men weren�t cerebral enough to pitch, catch, or manage. Here is Bob Kendrick on the topic�

��-

�Historically, pitchers and catchers did not transition from the Negro Leagues,�� Kendrick said. �There were great arms in the Negro Leagues, and we had great catchers from Josh Gibson to Roy Campanella, but that was considered a cerebral position. And the general consensus back then was that these men weren�t smart enough to play in the major leagues.

��

Same line of racist thinking limited Black Quarterbacks in football and managers/GMs in several sports.

Additionally, Black pitchers were hesitant to throw inside vs white batters out of fear their lives or careers would be at risk if they injured a white player.

Thank you. I remember that bullshit from the 80s. "A black man can't quarterback."

PE : we about to watch the super bowl, we got a black quarter back, so step back.

Ricky · #9 12-18-2020, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark17

I think a good argument can be made that the pitching in the NL wasn't great. After Jackie broke the color line in 1947, it took 18 years before a black pitcher won 20 games (Mudcat Grant and Bob Gibson in 1965.) It was so rare for a black pitcher to win 20 in the Majors that Grant wrote a book about them titled "The Black Aces." I have a signed copy.

Grant, Gibson, Earl Wilson, Jenkins, Downing, Blue, Richard, Norris, Gooden, Stewart, and in 2005, Dontrelle Willis. In the 57 years since 1947, there were only 11 black 20 game winners. Of these 11, only 4 did it more than once (Gibson, Jenkins, Blue, Stewart.)

So for all the talk about the great black hitters back in the day, the pitching, by Major League standards, was much less impressive. And that had to help the hitters.

Juan Marichal? I know he was a Latin pitcher but segregation would have kept him out too.

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