Your biggest what if's and thoughts on Tony Conigliaro?

[David W]

As a Cardinal fan I will bring up the cases of John Fulgham, Bill DeLancey and Austin McHenry.

Fulgham pitched 2 seasons for the Cardinals in 1979 and 1980.

In those 2 seasons he went 14 and 12 in 233 innings with a WHIP of 1.06 and ERA of 2.84 with 3 shutouts.

He was only 24 when he pitched his last game, and a torn rotator cuff did him in.

I am sure he will be the last pitcher to have career totals of complete games equal to or higher than his career wins, as he had 14 wins and 14 CG.

Bill DeLancey, who Branch Rickey said was one of the 3 greatest catchers of all time, died at age 35. At age 22 he was the catcher on the 1934 WS champs. Tuberculosis and lung issues would end his career at age 23, and he would die at age 35.

Austin McHenry played for the Cardinals from 1918-22. He was well on his way to a Hall of Fame career, when he died at age 27 from a brain tumor.

https://sabr.org/bioproj/person/john-fulgham/

https://sabr.org/bioproj/person/bill-delancey/

https://sabr.org/bioproj/person/austin-mchenry/

[David W]

Fulgham, McHenry, and Delancey

[packs]

It would have been nice to see what Buzz Arlett could have done with a major league career. He only got one shot at age 32 and put up an OPS of 925, which wasn't too shabby.

But as a career minor leaguer he was essentially Babe Ruth. Not only did he hit 341 over his career and over 400 homers, but he also won over 100 games as a pitcher.

[Mike D.]

What if Rick Ankiel hadn't gotten the "yips"?

What if Kerry Wood and Mark Prior had stayed healthy?

[Eric72]

Perhaps the biggest "what if" of them all:

What if there had never been a second world war?

• Names we've never known would have had HOF careers
• The "color barrier" might not have been broken by Jackie Robinson
• Team rosters would have included different players, possibly changing the outcome of several franchises. Maybe my beloved Phillies win their first World Series before their 97th year
• Ted Williams possibly becomes the one who hits 715
• Etc., etc., etc.

[Seven]

Originally Posted by Eric72

Perhaps the biggest "what if" of them all:

What if there had never been a second world war?

• Names we've never known would have had HOF careers
• The "color barrier" might not have been broken by Jackie Robinson
• Team rosters would have included different players, possibly changing the outcome of several franchises. Maybe my beloved Phillies win their first World Series before their 97th year
• Ted Williams possibly becomes the one who hits 715
• Etc., etc., etc.

I think if there is no War, Williams is regarded as the 2nd or third greatest behind Ruth, and Cobb, and I don't think this is talked about enough. In the four years leading up to the War, Williams average state line was the following

Hits: 187
Doubles: 38
Home Runs: 32
RBI's: 129
WAR: 8.5


Assuming he at a minimum meets those averages for the three years he plays, he adds 561 Hits, 114 Doubles, 96 Home Runs, 387 RBI's and 25.5 WAR to his career Totals. Williams Career Line now looks like this

3,215 Hits, 639 Doubles, 617 Home Runs, 2226 RBI's and a 147.3 WAR

That's just if World War Two doesn't Happen! Korea also bit a chunk out of Williams career as well. He misses the majority of two seasons due to the Korean War. Using the same method as above, compiling the average of the four seasons leading up to Korea (along with subtracting the small numbers he compiled during the limited amount of games he played, we are looking at a minimum at another 287 Hits, 62 Doubles, 50 Home runs, 217 RBI's 11.9 WAR which brings us to Teds minimum career stat line (assuming he is healthy) to

3,502 Hits 701 Doubles, 667 Home Runs 2443 RBI's and a 159.2 WAR

Truly insane. This is why I love playing the What If Game.

[egri]

Originally Posted by Seven

I think if there is no War, Williams is regarded as the 2nd or third greatest behind Ruth, and Cobb, and I don't think this is talked about enough. In the four years leading up to the War, Williams average state line was the following

Hits: 187
Doubles: 38
Home Runs: 32
RBI's: 129
WAR: 8.5


Assuming he at a minimum meets those averages for the three years he plays, he adds 561 Hits, 114 Doubles, 96 Home Runs, 387 RBI's and 25.5 WAR to his career Totals. Williams Career Line now looks like this

3,215 Hits, 639 Doubles, 617 Home Runs, 2226 RBI's and a 147.3 WAR

That's just if World War Two doesn't Happen! Korea also bit a chunk out of Williams career as well. He misses the majority of two seasons due to the Korean War. Using the same method as above, compiling the average of the four seasons leading up to Korea (along with subtracting the small numbers he compiled during the limited amount of games he played, we are looking at a minimum at another 287 Hits, 62 Doubles, 50 Home runs, 217 RBI's 11.9 WAR which brings us to Teds minimum career stat line (assuming he is healthy) to

3,502 Hits 701 Doubles, 667 Home Runs 2443 RBI's and a 159.2 WAR

Truly insane. This is why I love playing the What If Game.

If that was his stat line in 1960, then I’m sure he comes back for at least one more year. He would’ve teed off on the expansion pitching.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by Seven

I think if there is no War, Williams is regarded as the 2nd or third greatest behind Ruth, and Cobb, and I don't think this is talked about enough. In the four years leading up to the War, Williams average state line was the following

Hits: 187
Doubles: 38
Home Runs: 32
RBI's: 129
WAR: 8.5


Assuming he at a minimum meets those averages for the three years he plays, he adds 561 Hits, 114 Doubles, 96 Home Runs, 387 RBI's and 25.5 WAR to his career Totals. Williams Career Line now looks like this

3,215 Hits, 639 Doubles, 617 Home Runs, 2226 RBI's and a 147.3 WAR

That's just if World War Two doesn't Happen! Korea also bit a chunk out of Williams career as well. He misses the majority of two seasons due to the Korean War. Using the same method as above, compiling the average of the four seasons leading up to Korea (along with subtracting the small numbers he compiled during the limited amount of games he played, we are looking at a minimum at another 287 Hits, 62 Doubles, 50 Home runs, 217 RBI's 11.9 WAR which brings us to Teds minimum career stat line (assuming he is healthy) to

3,502 Hits 701 Doubles, 667 Home Runs 2443 RBI's and a 159.2 WAR

Truly insane. This is why I love playing the What If Game.

I'll get reamed for this, but even without the missed years' stats, I still think Ted Williams is the greatest hitter of all-time.

Here's how I see it:

1a. Teddy Ballgame
1b. The Bambino

Ruth has superior statistics, but I consider the other factors. Ruth never had to play at night. And most importantly, he never played against black players, at least, not in official games. Ruth also had vastly superior offensive talent around him. The last seven years of his prime, he had arguably one of the five greatest hitters in baseball history batting behind him. Having to pitch to Ruth because of the gorilla on deck would have helped to offset any early erosion of Ruth's skills, slight though that erosion would have been. But nobody can deny that Gehrig being behind him exponentially increased the quality of pitches he saw.

I think it is very close between them. If they were thoroughbreds at the Derby, it would be a photo finish.

My short list of the greatest hitters would look something like this:

1a. Williams
1b. Ruth
3. Cobb
4. Hornsby
5. Gehrig
6. Musial

Then, I'd start looking at guys like Tony Gwynn. Fantastic hitter, but he didn't have the power the guys on that list did. DiMaggio and Mantle would both be high on the list-DiMaggio is lowered a bit because his true peak, prior to WW II, was shortened, and Mantle's later career was tremendously hampered by injury. Mantle is still a top ten offensive performer in history with that downside of his career. But before the injuries really took their toll:

1951-1964:

.309 AVG, .429 OBP, .582 SLG, 1.011 OPS, 177 OPS+.

I'm sure I'm forgetting somebody.

[howard38]

Originally Posted by David W

As a Cardinal fan I will bring up the cases of John Fulgham, Bill DeLancey and Austin McHenry.

Fulgham pitched 2 seasons for the Cardinals in 1979 and 1980.

In those 2 seasons he went 14 and 12 in 233 innings with a WHIP of 1.06 and ERA of 2.84 with 3 shutouts.

He was only 24 when he pitched his last game, and a torn rotator cuff did him in.

I am sure he will be the last pitcher to have career totals of complete games equal to or higher than his career wins, as he had 14 wins and 14 CG.

Bill DeLancey, who Branch Rickey said was one of the 3 greatest catchers of all time, died at age 35. At age 22 he was the catcher on the 1934 WS champs. Tuberculosis and lung issues would end his career at age 23, and he would die at age 35.

Austin McHenry played for the Cardinals from 1918-22. He was well on his way to a Hall of Fame career, when he died at age 27 from a brain tumor.

https://sabr.org/bioproj/person/john-fulgham/

https://sabr.org/bioproj/person/bill-delancey/

https://sabr.org/bioproj/person/austin-mchenry/

Fulgham's contemporary, Rick Langford, had more complete games than wins (85-73) & pitched for a few years after 1980.

[stlcardsfan]

Herb Score is a huge what if had he not been hit by a Gil McDougald line drive given his performance up to then.

[egri]

Dale Alexander is another one. He had a late start, but had a few good years until a quack medical treatment ended his career when he was 30.

[Peter_Spaeth]

The biggest what if has to be what if Blacks had been eligible all along to play in the Major Leagues.

[Peter_Spaeth]

As for individuals, Dwight Gooden. He was just a kid when he started and he was unbelievable.

[Seven]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The biggest what if has to be what if Blacks had been eligible all along to play in the Major Leagues.

It would have been a sight to see Satchel Paige, pitch to Babe Ruth or Walter Johnson pitch to Oscar Charleston.

How about Lefty Grove pitching to Josh Gibson? Another match up we were robbed of.

Would've been even more interesting to see what teams these guys would have played on.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Seven

It would have been a sight to see Satchel Paige, pitch to Babe Ruth or Walter Johnson pitch to Oscar Charleston.

How about Lefty Grove pitching to Josh Gibson? Another match up we were robbed of.

Would've been even more interesting to see what teams these guys would have played on.

I believe Paige did pitch to Ruth in exhibitions. If memory serves Buck O'Neill recounted Ruth homering off him but I'll have to check.

Here 'tis.
Ken Burns's documentary on baseball included an interview with Negro League player Buck O'Neil. Here is a portion of the interview:

Is there one moment in all of baseball you wish you could have seen?

I wish I could have been there when Babe Ruth pointed and hit the ball out of the ballpark in the 1932 World Series. I wish I could have seen that. But I did see something I admired just about as much, with Satchel Paige and Babe Ruth. This was in Chicago, after Ruth came out of the major leagues. He was barnstorming, playing with different teams, and he played us. Satchel was pitching and Ruth was hitting. Satchel threw Ruth the ball and Ruth hit the ball, must have been 500 feet, off of Satchel. Satchel looked at Ruth all the way around the bases and when Ruth got to home plate, you know who shook his hand? Satchel Paige shook Ruth's hand at home plate.

They stopped the game and waited, he and Satchel talking, until the kid went out, got the ball, brought it back and Satchel had Babe Ruth autograph that ball for him. That was some kind of moment.

[David W]

Originally Posted by howard38

Fulgham's contemporary, Rick Langford, had more complete games than wins (85-73) & pitched for a few years after 1980.

Lankford is likely to be the last pitcher to do so, unless there is a significant change in the way Baseball is played.