Your biggest what if's and thoughts on Tony Conigliaro?

[Seven]

I've always enjoyed looking through the past careers of players, especially ones that we often attach "what if?" to. I see how he was the fastest to 100 Home Runs for an American League player, and the numbers did look promising but numbers only tell so much. Anyone here see him play and could give me their honest opinion of him?

Additionally who do you often find yourself playing the what if game with?

[butchie_t]

Ray Fosse,

I wonder at time how good he could have been if Pete Rose would not have bowled him over during an All-Star game. Fosse did not have a bad career but maybe it would have been better if not for that collision.

[Shoeless Moe]

I heard at one point they were going to make a movie about him, but have not seen anything lately on that.

https://www.themovieblog.com/2020/09...ully-realized/

[JollyElm]

Hollywood would turn him into a transgender, illegal immigrant minority to appeal to the 'woke' snowflakes.

[brett 75]

Would have liked to see Thurman Munson play out his career. One of the top catchers at the time of his demise. HOF? Being aYankee might have helped his chances.
The other player was Lyman Bostock. Put up good numbers his first couple seasons but was shot and killed. Never got the chance
Didn’t get to see Tony C play but still collected all his cards.
Brett

[sdimag]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

Hollywood would turn him into a transgender, illegal immigrant minority to appeal to the 'woke' snowflakes.

Too funny!!

[Seven]

Originally Posted by brett 75

Would have liked to see Thurman Munson play out his career. One of the top catchers at the time of his demise. HOF? Being aYankee might have helped his chances.
The other player was Lyman Bostock. Put up good numbers his first couple seasons but was shot and killed. Never got the chance
Didn’t get to see Tony C play but still collected all his cards.
Brett

I think Munson was borderline when he tragically passed. Can't imagine how much longer he would've caught but maybe 3-4 more seasons of what he was doing in his final year would've done the trick.

Bostock is a tragic story, I heard he was a fantastic Contact hitter. Another guy that comes to mind is Pitcher, Herb Score. Had some great years before that comebacker.

[JollyElm]

In two words, Don Mattingly. He went from being Superman to having a back made of kryptonite. Truly heartbreaking.

[egri]

Originally Posted by Seven

I've always enjoyed looking through the past careers of players, especially ones that we often attach "what if?" to. I see how he was the fastest to 100 Home Runs for an American League player, and the numbers did look promising but numbers only tell so much. Anyone here see him play and could give me their honest opinion of him?

Additionally who do you often find yourself playing the what if game with?

That 1967 team had a few what ifs. Jim Lonborg tore his knee skiing the Christmas after he won the Cy Young Award and was never the same. Ken Harrelson broke his leg a couple years later and retired at 30. Then their first base coach, Bobby Doerr, had back problems that last year of his career and was out of the league at 33. He also lost a year and change due to military service during World War II.

[packs]

As a Yankees fan I would have liked to see what Chien-Ming Wang would have done if not for that base running injury. He was off to a great start.

[Mark17]

I think about Tony Horton and the career he could've had, if he could've put his career in perspective and enjoyed the game.

[frankbmd]

Eddie Gaedel could have literally “walked” into the Hall of Fame.

[steve B]

What if the Red Sox had signed Dave Kingman?

A right handed hitter who hit lots of massive popups in Fenway? We might be talking about how even the juicers fell short of the season HR record.

[brett 75]

Eddie G may have come up a little short, to make the HOF

[SAllen2556]

What if the Bird hadn't wrecked his wing? He and Jack Morris together would have been fun to watch through the 80's.

And as long as it's a "what if" why not an imaginary '76 rookie card to go with it.

36444236045_16b1254418_w.jpg36444241455_2881b20068_w.jpg

[Eric72]

What if Mickey Mantle had been healthy...

[jgannon]

When I think of Tony Conigliaro, I remember getting his card back in 1968 and looking at his stats and seeing 104 home runs after just four years playing. It was my first year as a baseball fan, and the first year I collected cards.

When I saw his stats, I said, "Yeah, he must be good". I didn't know about his getting hit by the pitch at that point. What a shame. He was really on the road to what looked like a great career.

J.R. Richard is somebody else I think of when it comes to this subject...

[Mike D.]

What if Bo Jackson didn't have the football injury?

What if Dustin Pedroia didn't have the knee injury (I'd argue he's borderline HOF now...imagine 3-4 more good seasons)

What if Nolan Ryan's career wasn't cut short by injury at only 46?

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by Mike D.

...What if Nolan Ryan's career wasn't cut short by injury at only 46?

Yeah, he might have put up some decent numbers if that didn't happen.

[egri]

Here's one: what if Dean Acheson had included South Korea in the Asian Defense Perimeter? It likely would've prevented the Korean War (the Russians and Chinese were unwilling to support an invasion when they thought it likely the US would intervene, and omitting South Korea convinced them the US wouldn't). Leaving aside the political implications, with no war in Korea, Ted Williams doesn't get recalled, Willie Mays and Whitey Ford don't get drafted, and Mickey Mantle doesn't get hounded by alleged draft-dodging. Mays almost certainly hits 700 home runs. He might not have topped Hank Aaron, but he would have come close. Williams plays a full 1953 season where he tore the cover off the ball, and I'm sure there are other players as well who could've benefitted.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by brett 75

Eddie G may have come up a little short, to make the HOF

Gaedel was a tough man to pitch to, but miserable on the base paths. Took him a full minute to go from first to third.

[Seven]

Originally Posted by Eric72

What if Mickey Mantle had been healthy...

I think Mickey with no Injuries (and while we're at it, no drinking problem) would've been the greatest to ever play. I think it was the Lost Boy where the author came to the Conclusion that Mantle at a minimum played his entire career with a torn ACL. His injury from Schoendiest landing on his shoulder in the world series certainly didn't help either. I think 650 Home Runs for his career would've been all but guaranteed. Quite possibly more as he had to hang them up pretty young. We would've probably saw him steal some more bases as well.

Originally Posted by egri

Here's one: what if Dean Acheson had included South Korea in the Asian Defense Perimeter? It likely would've prevented the Korean War (the Russians and Chinese were unwilling to support an invasion when they thought it likely the US would intervene, and omitting South Korea convinced them the US wouldn't). Leaving aside the political implications, with no war in Korea, Ted Williams doesn't get recalled, Willie Mays and Whitey Ford don't get drafted, and Mickey Mantle doesn't get hounded by alleged draft-dodging. Mays almost certainly hits 700 home runs. He might not have topped Hank Aaron, but he would have come close. Williams plays a full 1953 season where he tore the cover off the ball, and I'm sure there are other players as well who could've benefitted.

Had Williams not had to fight in both Wars, I think it would've just added to his cases as the greatest hitter ever. Mays would've come close to Aaron as well!

[clydepepper]

If...Dalkowski

[cannonballsun]

A pre-war guy, Smokey Joe Wood.
Pre and post war-Ted Williams. What would his career stats looked like if hadn't missed so much time ?

[egri]

Originally Posted by cannonballsun

A pre-war guy, Smokey Joe Wood.
Pre and post war-Ted Williams. What would his career stats looked like if hadn't missed so much time ?

SI ran an article here while back, projecting the stats for Williams and Joe DiMaggio.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by Seven

I think Munson was borderline when he tragically passed. Can't imagine how much longer he would've caught but maybe 3-4 more seasons of what he was doing in his final year would've done the trick.

Bostock is a tragic story, I heard he was a fantastic Contact hitter. Another guy that comes to mind is Pitcher, Herb Score. Had some great years before that comebacker.

Doing what in his final year, being a below league average offensive performer?

Thurman was on the downside of his career. His power was all but gone. Being behind the plate is a rough way to make a living, and his future was either being moved to first (which Don Mattingly would soon claim), or being traded to another team.

I just don't think he had a long enough peak to get into Cooperstown. Fine player, and it's tragic how he passed. Appreciate the way he played, and let's not try to put every borderline Hall-worthy guy in.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

In two words, Don Mattingly. He went from being Superman to having a back made of kryptonite. Truly heartbreaking.

Mattingly is my guy with a bat, and Ben Sheets on the mound.

Sheets took that step as a true ace at age 25, and just was never the same after that season. It's too bad that he got hurt, and that the Brewers team he played on was utter trash. Sheets was a legit stud.

Check out the video on Youtube of his striking out 18 Braves that season. Just nasty stuff.

[Seven]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

Doing what in his final year, being a below league average offensive performer?

Thurman was on the downside of his career. His power was all but gone. Being behind the plate is a rough way to make a living, and his future was either being moved to first (which Don Mattingly would soon claim), or being traded to another team.

I just don't think he had a long enough peak to get into Cooperstown. Fine player, and it's tragic how he passed. Appreciate the way he played, and let's not try to put every borderline Hall-worthy guy in.

He was on the downside, from a WAR perspective (not that it's the be all and end all, far from it) he had a 2.4 WAR in 97 Games. Had he put together a few more 3+ WAR seasons I think he would've been borderline. I should correct my original statement. Though on the subject of the Hall I'm more of a Small Hall type of guy, and I do agree, not every borderline guy should be voted in. Mattingly was a tragedy, that back injury really did him in. Such a good hitte.r

[egri]

I don't think Cecil Travis has been mentioned yet, so I'll bring him up. He led the league in hits before enlisting a couple days after Bob Feller. He almost lost a foot due to frostbite during the Battle of the Bulge. He was never the same afterwards, and was washed up at 31.

[David W]

As a Cardinal fan I will bring up the cases of John Fulgham, Bill DeLancey and Austin McHenry.

Fulgham pitched 2 seasons for the Cardinals in 1979 and 1980.

In those 2 seasons he went 14 and 12 in 233 innings with a WHIP of 1.06 and ERA of 2.84 with 3 shutouts.

He was only 24 when he pitched his last game, and a torn rotator cuff did him in.

I am sure he will be the last pitcher to have career totals of complete games equal to or higher than his career wins, as he had 14 wins and 14 CG.

Bill DeLancey, who Branch Rickey said was one of the 3 greatest catchers of all time, died at age 35. At age 22 he was the catcher on the 1934 WS champs. Tuberculosis and lung issues would end his career at age 23, and he would die at age 35.

Austin McHenry played for the Cardinals from 1918-22. He was well on his way to a Hall of Fame career, when he died at age 27 from a brain tumor.

https://sabr.org/bioproj/person/john-fulgham/

https://sabr.org/bioproj/person/bill-delancey/

https://sabr.org/bioproj/person/austin-mchenry/

[David W]

Fulgham, McHenry, and Delancey

[packs]

It would have been nice to see what Buzz Arlett could have done with a major league career. He only got one shot at age 32 and put up an OPS of 925, which wasn't too shabby.

But as a career minor leaguer he was essentially Babe Ruth. Not only did he hit 341 over his career and over 400 homers, but he also won over 100 games as a pitcher.

[Mike D.]

What if Rick Ankiel hadn't gotten the "yips"?

What if Kerry Wood and Mark Prior had stayed healthy?

[Eric72]

Perhaps the biggest "what if" of them all:

What if there had never been a second world war?

• Names we've never known would have had HOF careers
• The "color barrier" might not have been broken by Jackie Robinson
• Team rosters would have included different players, possibly changing the outcome of several franchises. Maybe my beloved Phillies win their first World Series before their 97th year
• Ted Williams possibly becomes the one who hits 715
• Etc., etc., etc.

[Seven]

Originally Posted by Eric72

Perhaps the biggest "what if" of them all:

What if there had never been a second world war?

• Names we've never known would have had HOF careers
• The "color barrier" might not have been broken by Jackie Robinson
• Team rosters would have included different players, possibly changing the outcome of several franchises. Maybe my beloved Phillies win their first World Series before their 97th year
• Ted Williams possibly becomes the one who hits 715
• Etc., etc., etc.

I think if there is no War, Williams is regarded as the 2nd or third greatest behind Ruth, and Cobb, and I don't think this is talked about enough. In the four years leading up to the War, Williams average state line was the following

Hits: 187
Doubles: 38
Home Runs: 32
RBI's: 129
WAR: 8.5


Assuming he at a minimum meets those averages for the three years he plays, he adds 561 Hits, 114 Doubles, 96 Home Runs, 387 RBI's and 25.5 WAR to his career Totals. Williams Career Line now looks like this

3,215 Hits, 639 Doubles, 617 Home Runs, 2226 RBI's and a 147.3 WAR

That's just if World War Two doesn't Happen! Korea also bit a chunk out of Williams career as well. He misses the majority of two seasons due to the Korean War. Using the same method as above, compiling the average of the four seasons leading up to Korea (along with subtracting the small numbers he compiled during the limited amount of games he played, we are looking at a minimum at another 287 Hits, 62 Doubles, 50 Home runs, 217 RBI's 11.9 WAR which brings us to Teds minimum career stat line (assuming he is healthy) to

3,502 Hits 701 Doubles, 667 Home Runs 2443 RBI's and a 159.2 WAR

Truly insane. This is why I love playing the What If Game.

[egri]

Originally Posted by Seven

I think if there is no War, Williams is regarded as the 2nd or third greatest behind Ruth, and Cobb, and I don't think this is talked about enough. In the four years leading up to the War, Williams average state line was the following

Hits: 187
Doubles: 38
Home Runs: 32
RBI's: 129
WAR: 8.5


Assuming he at a minimum meets those averages for the three years he plays, he adds 561 Hits, 114 Doubles, 96 Home Runs, 387 RBI's and 25.5 WAR to his career Totals. Williams Career Line now looks like this

3,215 Hits, 639 Doubles, 617 Home Runs, 2226 RBI's and a 147.3 WAR

That's just if World War Two doesn't Happen! Korea also bit a chunk out of Williams career as well. He misses the majority of two seasons due to the Korean War. Using the same method as above, compiling the average of the four seasons leading up to Korea (along with subtracting the small numbers he compiled during the limited amount of games he played, we are looking at a minimum at another 287 Hits, 62 Doubles, 50 Home runs, 217 RBI's 11.9 WAR which brings us to Teds minimum career stat line (assuming he is healthy) to

3,502 Hits 701 Doubles, 667 Home Runs 2443 RBI's and a 159.2 WAR

Truly insane. This is why I love playing the What If Game.

If that was his stat line in 1960, then I’m sure he comes back for at least one more year. He would’ve teed off on the expansion pitching.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by Seven

He was on the downside, from a WAR perspective (not that it's the be all and end all, far from it) he had a 2.4 WAR in 97 Games. Had he put together a few more 3+ WAR seasons I think he would've been borderline. I should correct my original statement. Though on the subject of the Hall I'm more of a Small Hall type of guy, and I do agree, not every borderline guy should be voted in. Mattingly was a tragedy, that back injury really did him in. Such a good hitte.r

I really liked Munson. Though he died young, I've watched about everything I could find about the man on Youtube. The man had guts, and loved playing in New York. It's spooky watching the video of the last game he played. I watch him at the plate, and think to myself "somebody tell him to skip going out to the air field for a few days." The most heartbreaking aspect to Munson's death is that he got the plane, and his pilot's license, so he could fly home between days off to see his family. I'm sure after he started, the allure of being a pilot kicked in. But the impetus was spending more time with his wife and kids. That realization is a punch in the gut.

I hate that he didn't have the opportunity to rebound, because the man was a gamer. If anybody could have gutted out a couple more All Star seasons, he'd be that guy. He's one of those players that you'd have had to literally drag off the field, like Mantle. Mickey tried to will himself to 600 home runs. His body just completely gave out on him. And Munson was the kind of guy every manager dreams of having. The Yankees have had an absurd bevy of riches behind the plate, haven't they?

If Munson does get in, you won't hear a single negative word from me. There are occasional guys that transcend mere statistics. His contributions to one of the best teams in baseball in the mid to late 70s, championship teams, cannot be overlooked. And I waffle on his worthiness. My heart says put him in, but my brain gets in the way.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by Seven

I think if there is no War, Williams is regarded as the 2nd or third greatest behind Ruth, and Cobb, and I don't think this is talked about enough. In the four years leading up to the War, Williams average state line was the following

Hits: 187
Doubles: 38
Home Runs: 32
RBI's: 129
WAR: 8.5


Assuming he at a minimum meets those averages for the three years he plays, he adds 561 Hits, 114 Doubles, 96 Home Runs, 387 RBI's and 25.5 WAR to his career Totals. Williams Career Line now looks like this

3,215 Hits, 639 Doubles, 617 Home Runs, 2226 RBI's and a 147.3 WAR

That's just if World War Two doesn't Happen! Korea also bit a chunk out of Williams career as well. He misses the majority of two seasons due to the Korean War. Using the same method as above, compiling the average of the four seasons leading up to Korea (along with subtracting the small numbers he compiled during the limited amount of games he played, we are looking at a minimum at another 287 Hits, 62 Doubles, 50 Home runs, 217 RBI's 11.9 WAR which brings us to Teds minimum career stat line (assuming he is healthy) to

3,502 Hits 701 Doubles, 667 Home Runs 2443 RBI's and a 159.2 WAR

Truly insane. This is why I love playing the What If Game.

I'll get reamed for this, but even without the missed years' stats, I still think Ted Williams is the greatest hitter of all-time.

Here's how I see it:

1a. Teddy Ballgame
1b. The Bambino

Ruth has superior statistics, but I consider the other factors. Ruth never had to play at night. And most importantly, he never played against black players, at least, not in official games. Ruth also had vastly superior offensive talent around him. The last seven years of his prime, he had arguably one of the five greatest hitters in baseball history batting behind him. Having to pitch to Ruth because of the gorilla on deck would have helped to offset any early erosion of Ruth's skills, slight though that erosion would have been. But nobody can deny that Gehrig being behind him exponentially increased the quality of pitches he saw.

I think it is very close between them. If they were thoroughbreds at the Derby, it would be a photo finish.

My short list of the greatest hitters would look something like this:

1a. Williams
1b. Ruth
3. Cobb
4. Hornsby
5. Gehrig
6. Musial

Then, I'd start looking at guys like Tony Gwynn. Fantastic hitter, but he didn't have the power the guys on that list did. DiMaggio and Mantle would both be high on the list-DiMaggio is lowered a bit because his true peak, prior to WW II, was shortened, and Mantle's later career was tremendously hampered by injury. Mantle is still a top ten offensive performer in history with that downside of his career. But before the injuries really took their toll:

1951-1964:

.309 AVG, .429 OBP, .582 SLG, 1.011 OPS, 177 OPS+.

I'm sure I'm forgetting somebody.

[Jim65]

What if Joe Jackson hadn't decided to throw World Series games? Would've easily been a first ballot HOFer.

[packs]

All due respect to Ted Williams but I don't think any extended career was going to catch him up with Ruth.

[deucetwins]

Hunky Shaw: What if he had 2 ABs?

[bb66]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

Hollywood would turn him into a transgender, illegal immigrant minority to appeal to the 'woke' snowflakes.

I am glad someone remembered the politics!

[packs]

I would have liked to see Jackie's full career. Or what Hideki Matsui could have done.

[rats60]

My greatest what if is what if Roberto Clemente hadn't died in a plane crash. He still had 4-5 good years left. He was the best player in baseball in 1971. He struggled with injuries in 1972. A healthy year in 1973 and the Pirates easily with the division and have a strong chance at another World Championship and future runs at least in 1974-1975.

I feel he is one of the most underrated players ever. Give him ~5 more years of counting stats, more gold gloves and rings and maybe he gets the respect today that he had at the time, as the best player in baseball in the late 60s-early 70s and his place as one of the greatest all around players ever.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by rats60

I feel he is one of the most underrated players ever. Give him ~5 more years of counting stats, more gold gloves and rings and maybe he gets the respect today that he had at the time, as the best player in baseball in the late 60s-early 70s and his place as one of the greatest all around players ever.

Instead, he's remembered as one of the greatest humanitarians ever, which to me is a lot more significant than hitting, catching, and throwing a ball.

Clemente's greatness is on a different, higher level and yes, his stuff is way undervalued IMO.

[packs]

I think he was a great humanitarian whether he passed away or not. Some extra years would have done a lot to cement his legacy on the field.

[Mike D.]

It’d be a bit much to expect 4-5 more good seasons from anyone who’s 37, but clearly he had more in the tank.

[howard38]

Originally Posted by David W

As a Cardinal fan I will bring up the cases of John Fulgham, Bill DeLancey and Austin McHenry.

Fulgham pitched 2 seasons for the Cardinals in 1979 and 1980.

In those 2 seasons he went 14 and 12 in 233 innings with a WHIP of 1.06 and ERA of 2.84 with 3 shutouts.

He was only 24 when he pitched his last game, and a torn rotator cuff did him in.

I am sure he will be the last pitcher to have career totals of complete games equal to or higher than his career wins, as he had 14 wins and 14 CG.

Bill DeLancey, who Branch Rickey said was one of the 3 greatest catchers of all time, died at age 35. At age 22 he was the catcher on the 1934 WS champs. Tuberculosis and lung issues would end his career at age 23, and he would die at age 35.

Austin McHenry played for the Cardinals from 1918-22. He was well on his way to a Hall of Fame career, when he died at age 27 from a brain tumor.

https://sabr.org/bioproj/person/john-fulgham/

https://sabr.org/bioproj/person/bill-delancey/

https://sabr.org/bioproj/person/austin-mchenry/

Fulgham's contemporary, Rick Langford, had more complete games than wins (85-73) & pitched for a few years after 1980.

[stlcardsfan]

Herb Score is a huge what if had he not been hit by a Gil McDougald line drive given his performance up to then.

[egri]

Dale Alexander is another one. He had a late start, but had a few good years until a quack medical treatment ended his career when he was 30.