Interesting trivia about 1910 COUPON (T213-1) cards...show us some of these rare gems

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by jggames

Might be a good guess actually. It’s pretty easy to find newspaper articles and advertisements from 1909 to 1912 that include most of the American Tobacco and Liggett & Myers brands - American Beauty, Drummond (Drum), Carolina Brights, Old Mill, Piedmont. It’s pretty hard to find anything before 1912 that mentions “Coupon” brand.

Jason

In 1909, the New Orleans Times-Picayune published an announcement that the American Tobacco Co. was introducing a new brand named COUPON to be produced in New Orleans.

Do some some research and you'll find the newspaper clippings of this fact.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Jason

In 1909, the New Orleans Times-Picayune published an announcement that the American Tobacco Co. was introducing a new brand named COUPON to be produced in New Orleans.

Do some some research and you'll find the newspaper clippings of this fact.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

It was 1908 Ted

Originally Posted by Abravefan11

The following article shows a relationship between Coupon cigarettes and The American Tobacco company before the spring of 1910 as well as the use of quotation marks surrounding the word Coupon.

August 6, 1908 Times Picayune New Orleans



The same contest was run again by ATC in August 1909 giving away either Coupon or Picayune cigarettes.

[tedzan]

Thanks, that is one of the the newspaper clippings I was referring to. There is also another one which followed that one, published in 1909.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[jggames]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Jason

In 1909, the New Orleans Times-Picayune published an announcement that the American Tobacco Co. was introducing a new brand named COUPON to be produced in New Orleans.

Do some some research and you'll find the newspaper clippings of this fact.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

My only point was it was easy to find the others and difficult to find Coupon...and it may lead to a conclusion that Coupon was playing catch up later in the game.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by jggames

My only point was it was easy to find the others and difficult to find Coupon...and it may lead to a conclusion that Coupon was playing catch up later in the game.

Jason

I'm not sure I understand your comment here.

The labelling on the 1910 COUPON cards with the QUOTES ...."COUPON" is because this was American Tobacco Company's new brand in 1910
when these cards were printed, and this brand was not yet an officially Registered TRADEMARK.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[RCMcKenzie]

One of the first topics I encountered in college was the Locke-Leibniz debate. I wrote a paper siding with Locke, as I thought he had a cleaner, simpler argument. Most of my classmates had chosen Leibniz.

I still think the best evidence are the back designs. To me, these three cards are from the same series, or 3 different series, but not 2 in one series, and 1 in another.

[jggames]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Jason

I'm not sure I understand your comment here.

The labelling on the 1910 COUPON cards with the QUOTES ...."COUPON" is because this was American Tobacco Company's new brand in 1910
when these cards were printed, and this brand was not yet an officially Registered TRADEMARK.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Hi Ted
My comment wasn’t referring to any trademark issues. When one looks up information about ATC’s breakup into ATC, Liggett & Meyers, and P. Lorillard in 1911 there are tons of articles about which brands go with which new company. All of the brands, including Polar Bear and Sweet Cap that I left off my original list are mentioned in various newspapers. I didn’t see any (not that it doesn’t exist) that mention Coupon. Just a point of reference. I actually do think Coupon Type-1 belongs with the T206s for the stylistic details you mention. When they were printed just seems to be harder to nail down.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by jggames

Hi Ted
My comment wasn’t referring to any trademark issues. When one looks up information about ATC’s breakup into ATC, Liggett & Meyers, and P. Lorillard in 1911 there are tons of articles about which brands go with which new company. All of the brands, including Polar Bear and Sweet Cap that I left off my original list are mentioned in various newspapers. I didn’t see any (not that it doesn’t exist) that mention Coupon. Just a point of reference. I actually do think Coupon Type-1 belongs with the T206s for the stylistic details you mention. When they were printed just seems to be harder to nail down.

Hi Jason

When the ATC Monopoly was broken up, here's how it went. Please note that the COUPON brand is included in this decision.
Now, tell me that COUPON was not already a marketed brand by 1910 ?

American Tobacco Co. Divesture (May 1911)....proceedings started circa 1910.

Liggett & Myers was given about 28 per cent of the cigarette market:

Piedmont
Fatima
American Beauty
Home Run
Imperiales
Coupon
King Bee
Fatima (the only 15 Turkish blend

P. Lorillard received 15 per cent of the nation's business:

Helmar
Egyptian Deities
Turkish Trophies
Murad
Mogul
and all straight Turkish brands

American Tobacco retained 37 per cent of the market:

Pall Mall
Sweet Caporal
Hassan
Mecca


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Can't we cease this nit-picking, meaning-less crap. And try to have a more meaningful exchange. Damn it, once again a "hi-jacked" thread by the usual suspects ! !


Continuing......my Mickey Doolan brings us to 26 different 1910 COUPON cards on display so far in this thread. This number represents 38 % of this set.

So, there are many more to show. So, let's see some more of these rare gems.


.


Note the hint of cardboard residue from the cigarette carton this card was pasted on.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Really Ted? you "hi-jacked" your own thread when you posted this.

Originally Posted by tedzan

OK guys....).I am re-playing this thread for those of you who aren't members of the : " The 1910 COUPON club " .

As you read the posts in this thread, you will see that a fair number of serious collectors in this forum agree that the 68 cards in the 1910 COUPON
set are actually a sub-set of the T206.
I will spare you the usual gobble-de-gook that goes with this debate, instead I will reprise and emphasize a significant factor that sets the timeline
of when this set of cards were printed and issued.

Circa 2007, Brian Weisner and I had an interesting conversation regarding the Major League subjects in this set. Brian pointed out that the majority
of them were NOT printed with POLAR BEAR backs (like the 138 other 350-only Series T206's. After researching this....sure enough 39 of the 48
subjects are POLAR BEAR No-Prints.
The Six Super-Prints and Willett were printed with POLAR BEAR. This is logical, since these seven subjects were extended into the 350/460 Series.
Engle and LaPorte (350-only subjects) are the other two printed with POLAR BEAR.

What does this signify to us. Well American Litho did not introduce the POLAR BEAR backs until the 350-only series press runs circa Summer 1910.
Therefore, the absence of POLAR BEAR backs on the majority of these Major Leaguers in the 1910 COUPON set tells us this series of cards preceded
the POLAR BEAR print runs.
So this is my argument for the 1910 COUPON timeline being being Spring/Summer 1910. It makes sense to me. Especially since the subsequent 250
subjects in the T206 set were all printed with POLAR BEAR backs.

Because, if those "nay-sayers" with their contention that this set was issued after 1912, then explain to us why the lettering in the captions of these
cards are NOT blue ?


My hypothetical 48-card sheet of the 1910 COUPON Major Leaguers (reflects an early 350)-only Series sheet)





Major Leaguers (48 subjects)

Becker......Boston NL
Bender (trees)......A's
Byrne......St Louis NL
Campbell......Cincinnati
Chance (portrait-yellow)......Chicago NL
Charles......St Louis NL
Chase (blue portrait)......New York AL
Chase (dark cap)......New York AL
Cobb (red portrait)......Detroit
Cree......New York AL
Donovan (throwing)......Detroit
Doolan (fielding)......Phillies
Dubuc......Cincinnati
Dunn......Brooklyn
Engle......New York AL
Evers (bat-yellow sky)......Chicago NL
Fletcher.....New York NL
Hartsel......A's
Hoffman......St Louis AL
Howell (portrait)......St Louis AL

Huggins (portrait).....Cincinnati
Huggins (hands at mouth)......Cincinnati
Hunter......Brooklyn
Killian (portrait)......Detroit
Knabe......Phillies
LaPorte......New York AL
Lennox......Brooklyn
Marquard (portrait)......New York NL
Mathewson (dark cap)......New York NL
Marshall......Brooklyn
McBride......Washington
McElveen......Brooklyn
McIntyre.......Detroit
Mitchell.......Cincinnati
Mowery......Cincinnati
Myers (bat)......New York NL
Myers (fielding)......New York NL
Paskert.......Cincinnati
Rhoades (hands at chest)......Cleveland
Rossman......Detroit

Schmidt (portrait)......Detroit
Starr......Boston NL
Street (portrait)......Washington
Summers......Detroit
Sweeney.......Boston NL
Thomas......A's
Willett......Detroit
Wilson......Pittsburg


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Interesting discussion, sorry if I missed this, but did Burdick just group all the Coupons together into one designation, or was it any more sophisticated than that?

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Interesting discussion, sorry if I missed this, but did Burdick just group all the Coupons together into one designation, or was it any more sophisticated than that?

Hi Peter

Jeff Burdick identified the timeline of the three T213 sets as a very narrow 1914 - 1915 issues.

His timeline is wrong at both ends. The 1910 COUPON (T213-1) was issued circa Spring/Summer 1910. And, the T213-3 card's captions confirm that some subjects
were printed as late as 1919. For example...... Chase was traded to the NY Giants on February 19, 1919





The most significant error by Burdick is overlooking that the lettering of the captions of the 1910 COUPON cards are NOT printed in BLUE ink.

After 1912, American Lithographic printed the captions of their T-card issues (T213-2. T213-3, T214, T215-2) with BLUE ink.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[tedzan]

Can't we cease this nit-picking, meaning-less crap. And try to have a more meaningful exchange. Damn it, once again a "hi-jacked" thread by the usual suspects ! !


Continuing......my Mickey Doolan brings us to 26 different 1910 COUPON cards on display so far in this thread. This number represents 38 % of this set.

So, there are many more to show. So, let's see some more of these rare gems.


.


Note the hint of cardboard residue from the cigarette carton this card was pasted on.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.