Interesting trivia about 1910 COUPON (T213-1) cards...show us some of these rare gems

[Peter_Spaeth]

Interesting discussion, sorry if I missed this, but did Burdick just group all the Coupons together into one designation, or was it any more sophisticated than that?

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Interesting discussion, sorry if I missed this, but did Burdick just group all the Coupons together into one designation, or was it any more sophisticated than that?

Hi Peter

Jeff Burdick identified the timeline of the three T213 sets as a very narrow 1914 - 1915 issues.

His timeline is wrong at both ends. The 1910 COUPON (T213-1) was issued circa Spring/Summer 1910. And, the T213-3 card's captions confirm that some subjects
were printed as late as 1919. For example...... Chase was traded to the NY Giants on February 19, 1919





The most significant error by Burdick is overlooking that the lettering of the captions of the 1910 COUPON cards are NOT printed in BLUE ink.

After 1912, American Lithographic printed the captions of their T-card issues (T213-2. T213-3, T214, T215-2) with BLUE ink.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[brianp-beme]

This is the only one I can possibly post as one that I can claim as one that I own.

Brian (making the simple statement a thing of the past)

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by brianp-beme

This is the only one I can possibly post as one that I can claim as one that I own.

Brian (making the simple statement a thing of the past)

Hey Brian

Condition is immaterial, we take them anyway we can get them.

OK, you got us to the 40% mark of this 68-card set.

Thanks for posting.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Hi Peter

Jeff Burdick identified the timeline of the three T213 sets as a very narrow 1914 - 1915 issues.

Well, he was mistaken at both ends. The 1910 COUPON (T213-1) was issued circa Spring/Summer 1910. The T213-3 identifies players whose
captions indicate their teams as late as 1919.

The most significant error by Burdick is not realizing that the lettering of the captions of the 1910 COUPON cards are not printed in BLUE ink.

After 1912, American Litho printed the captions of their T-card issues (T213-2. T213-3, T214, T215-2) with BLUE ink.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Attack me if you want Ted but you keep posting this as fact when there is no proof of the 1910 date.

I have questioned where the 1910 date came from several times and you keep changing your answer. You originally said the 1909 newspaper clipping but it was pointed out that it didn't say anything about baseball pictures.

Jeremy then posted he had an ad about baseball pictures inserted in Coupon cigarettes but he posted later that he had mistaken it for an Old Mill or Hindu Ad.

Originally Posted by tedzan

Pat
1st.....Here is exactly what I said in the 1st post in this thread...…..



Pat....do notice that I stated...."Such a cigarette carton"

This particular carton which Jeremy posted in his thread some years ago contained COUPON cigarettes manufactured in 1913 - 1919. And, if cards were enclosed in this type of carton,
they would have been either T213-2 or T213-3.

This we know for sure, since the LIGGETT & MYERS TOBACCO CO. logo is printed on it.


The ATC divesture (circa June 1911) resulted in the following manner…………

LIGGETT & MYERS was given about 28 per cent of the cigarette market:

Coupon
Piedmont
Fatima
American Beauty
Home Run
Imperiales
King Bee
Fatima (the only 15 Turkish blend
and the cheap straight domestic brands.

P. LORILLARD received 15 per cent of the nation's business:

Helmar
Egyptian Deities
Turkish Trophies
Murad
Mogul
and all straight Turkish brands

AMERICAN TOBACCO CO. retained 37 per cent of the market:

Sweet Caporal
Hassan
Mecca
Pall Mall, its expensive all-Turkish brand, named for a fashionable London street in the 18th century where "pall-mall" (a precursor to croquet) was played.

R. J. REYNOLDS received no cigarette line but was awarded 20 per cent of the plug trade.



2nd....." and can you answer the question of where the 1910 date for the type 1 comes from."

Approx 10 years ago, Louisiana Newspaper clippings (1909 or 1910) were posted in a Net54 thread introducing the new ATC tobacco brand, COUPON.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Originally Posted by tedzan

It isn't different. The pack depicted on Jon's site is labelled LIGGETT & MYERS; therefore, it was issued 1913 (or later). If it had BB cards in it they would be T213-2 or T213-3, ONLY.
OR, it may have Movie stars in it from that era. For example...…

.





Your statement here tells us that you don't realize Jefferson Burdick incorrectly classified all three T213 sets as 1914-1915 issues. This timeline is a proven fallacy, on both ends of it.

"T213-1"......1910

T213-2...…….1914-1916

T213-3...…….1916-1919




The newspaper clipping was from the New Orleans Times Picayune. The date is circa late 1908, or early 1909. I cannot seem to find it (I read it at least 10 years ago).
You find it, you are good at searching for things.


Frankly, I am tired of playing this game. You do not want to accept my research, fine.....that's your prerogative. It appears to me that many guys responding in this thread
have more of an open mind.


TED Z
.

Originally Posted by DixieBaseball

LOL...

The 20 Southern Leaguer's are not included in the Type 2 or Type 3 Set. That is one glaring difference in the the Type 1's vs the Type 2 & 3's. Obviously the dates are different and the 20 Type 1 Southern Leaguer's are identical to the T206 players from 1909-11, yet not included in the 1914 & 1919 Coupon sets. If you take for example the 4 SL Nashville players (Bay,Bernhard,Ellam,Perdue) from the T206 set, they match spot on to the Type 1 Coupon set, but when you get into the Type 2 1914 Coupons, Nashville players change over to Al Bridwell & Gabby Street & same for Type 3 Coupons as they feature Al & Gabby. It's like this with other players from SL teams and that makes a distinction between the 20 SL featured in Coupon that were offered in the American Litho / ATC brands later named - T206.

Also, as for the New Orleans Times Picayune, there was a series of Coupon Advertisements in the 1909-10 papers depicting different Sportsmen scenarios, like hunting, horse racing, sporting events, etc. The pack is on the advertisement with T206 style cards showing and players names. One such advertisement (that I own), depicts 3 Southern Leaguer's coming out of the top of the pack. When I have time I will have to dig up the Newspaper as I don't have it scanned and its buried in a dry dark place. The Coupon Ad's were run for a handful of months around the 1909-10 time frame.

You keep coming up with different reasons for the 1910 dating of the Type1 but you ignore the Journal that has all every other t206 brand with the dates
they were packed and shipped but not Coupon.

[RCMcKenzie]

I missed this thread the first time around 3 years ago, and just went back and read the earlier posts. Here is Schmidt series 1 and 2. The type 1 is kind of rough, the type 2 was on my want-list for a long time before finding it at auction last year. Cool card with no D and Mobile...

[Pat R]

Maybe this will convince you how important the information in the journal is
Ted.

As I said before the Old Mill ad from 1909 was found for many years it was
said that the printing/distribution of the Southern Leaguers began sometime
in the spring/summer of 1910.

Here's the thread about that ad

https://www.net54baseball.com/showth...light=Old+Mill

If you look at one of the Old Mill pages in the journal it coincides with the
dates on all of the ads.
img454.jpg

The Old mill ad I found was in an August 1909 newspaper and the Journal
shows they started packing and shipping in July 1909
img454 - Copy.jpg

The Old mill ads that were previously known started in March 1910 and the journal shows they started packing on March 15 1910 and shipping on March 17 1910
img454 - Copy (2).jpg

In my thread I stated the last ad in the newspapers for the Old Mills was December 9 1910
and the journal shows they discontinued the Old Mills on December 14 1910.
img454 - Copy (3).jpg

Originally Posted by Pat R

It has long been thought that the southern league players were printed
with Hindu backs during the 150 series and that they were printed with Old Mill
backs in the early printing of the 350 series but that might not be the case.

The first known Hindu ad that showed pictures of but didn't mention southern
leaguers ran on August 13 1909.
Attachment 330858

The first known ad that mentioned the southern leaguers ran on August 23 1909.
Attachment 330859

I recently discovered this Old Mill ad that ran for a week in a Tampa
newspaper beginning on August 14 1909.
Attachment 330860

It seems that Eli Witt was quite an entrepreneur who had ties
with R.J. Reynolds.
Attachment 330861Attachment 330862

Originally Posted by Pat R

I feel like a jackass after my last post about the Old Mill ads. I visit
and use t206resource all the time and I've visited the advertisement
section several times but until last night I never noticed the galleries for the
Sporting Life, Hindu, Old Mill and Piedmont ads.

The Old mill gallery has 26 different ads.
http://t206resource.com/Old%20Mill%20Ad%20Gallery.html

Jim and Tim did a great job on the ads and I would like to
add some new information to theirs.

All 26 of the ads have a matching ad that was printed in Texas newspapers
with the exact picture but different wording and all the Texas paper ads
state that the packs contain Texas League baseball pictures

All the Texas Ads are on the right
Attachment 331067
Attachment 331068
Attachment 331069
Attachment 331070
Attachment 331071
Attachment 331072
Attachment 331074

The earliest Texas ad I found appeared in the Austin Statesman on Sept. 7 1910 the first non Texas ad appeared in a District of Columbia and Virginia
newspaper on March 1 1910. The last Texas ad appeared in the El Paso Herald on Dec 9 1910 and the last non Texas ad was in a Henderson NC paper on
Sept. 29 1910.

After the Dec. 9 I didn't find any Old Mill ads until this one
that appeared in the Galvelston daily news on Feb 14 1911
that made no mention of baseball pictures.
Attachment 331075

[RCMcKenzie]

Pat,

To Barry's comment earlier in the thread, and Peter's question, if type 2 and 3 Coupons did not exist, would Burdick have classified T213-1's as T206?

What were Old Mill and Sovereign cards called in 1910? Were they collected together to form a set? Were they called "White Borders"? Are Coupon cards made by a different group of people than the cards with Cycle backs?

Here are 3 different Diamond Stars cards with 3 different backs. Blue backs were released later than green backs, with the same front. The black back was re-released 40 years later by a different company. Are Coupon cards similar to the TCMA Diamond Stars card? I'm not looking at this as arguing, just trying to get a better understanding of the cards we collect.

(Also adding Bill Sweeney to the virtual set...)

[asphaltman]

My one and only at this point -

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

Pat,

To Barry's comment earlier in the thread, and Peter's question, if type 2 and 3 Coupons did not exist, would Burdick have classified T213-1's as T206?

What were Old Mill and Sovereign cards called in 1910? Were they collected together to form a set? Were they called "White Borders"? Are Coupon cards made by a different group of people than the cards with Cycle backs?

Here are 3 different Diamond Stars cards with 3 different backs. Blue backs were released later than green backs, with the same front. The black back was re-released 40 years later by a different company. Are Coupon cards similar to the TCMA Diamond Stars card? I'm not looking at this as arguing, just trying to get a better understanding of the cards we collect.

(Also adding Bill Sweeney to the virtual set...)

I'm not sure I understand all of your questions Rob. Personally it doesn't matter to me if some people want to group them in with t206's but I do think the date they were printed is important.

In most of the newspapers they were all just called baseball pictures or cigarette pictures all the way back to the late 1800's with the Old Judges and other sets from that era.

I think because of the popularity of what we now call the t206's shortly before the t213-2's they decided to try the same thing with the Coupon type 1's and the cheapest/easiest way was to print them on the thinner stock using the t206 images. (I think this answers Peters question too)