1919 Ruth vs 2021 Ohtani

Shoeless Moe · #1 08-04-2021, 10:37 PM

And I'm just saying to those who say Ruth couldn't compete in today's game and Walter Johnson couldn't pitch today....

....that considering how many of today's pitchers have come back from Tommy John surgery, they obviously couldn't play back then. They'd be done before they started.

Also, I'd like to see Bryce Harper & Mike Trout in Afganistan. Like Matty & Cobb went off to War, or the guys who had jobs in the offseason. Not working out all offseason, or coddled and groomed to be baseball players basically since birth. I'd be stunned if Trout knew how to start a lawnmower.

Peter_Spaeth · #2 08-04-2021, 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shoeless Moe

And I'm just saying to those who say Ruth couldn't compete in today's game and Walter Johnson couldn't pitch today....

....that considering how many of today's pitchers have come back from Tommy John surgery, they obviously couldn't play back then. They'd be done before they started.

Also, I'd like to see Bryce Harper & Mike Trout in Afganistan. Like Matty & Cobb went off to War, or the guys who had jobs in the offseason. Not working out all offseason, or coddled and groomed to be baseball players basically since birth. I'd be stunned if Trout knew how to start a lawnmower.

Trout grew up in a middle class suburb, no? He probably cut his grass once or twice lol.

Ricky · #3 08-05-2021, 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shoeless Moe

And I'm just saying to those who say Ruth couldn't compete in today's game and Walter Johnson couldn't pitch today....

....that considering how many of today's pitchers have come back from Tommy John surgery, they obviously couldn't play back then. They'd be done before they started.

Also, I'd like to see Bryce Harper & Mike Trout in Afganistan. Like Matty & Cobb went off to War, or the guys who had jobs in the offseason. Not working out all offseason, or coddled and groomed to be baseball players basically since birth. I'd be stunned if Trout knew how to start a lawnmower.

Perhaps all of the pitchers of today who need Tommy John surgery wouldn't have been injured back in the 1900-1920 era because they wouldn't have been throwing as hard on every pitch...

packs · #4 08-05-2021, 08:54 AM

I think what you're saying is that people don't know how to pitch anymore. I'd agree with that. Look at Syndergaard. He worked out enough to throw a ball through a brick wall but what good did it do him? He's not even on a mound.

Tabe · #5 08-05-2021, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by packs

I think what you're saying is that people don't know how to pitch anymore. I'd agree with that. Look at Syndergaard. He worked out enough to throw a ball through a brick wall but what good did it do him? He's not even on a mound.

You mean health problems like Amos Rusie and Sandy Koufax had?

packs · #6 08-05-2021, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tabe

You mean health problems like Amos Rusie and Sandy Koufax had?

I don't think their bodies were similar to Syndergaard.

Ricky · #7 08-05-2021, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by packs

I think what you're saying is that people don't know how to pitch anymore. I'd agree with that. Look at Syndergaard. He worked out enough to throw a ball through a brick wall but what good did it do him? He's not even on a mound.

Very true.

I think what you had in the 1900-1920 era were pitchers who pitched hard only when they had to. I'm sure Walter Johnson and Smoky Joe Wood hit 93-95 mph for a few pitches each game, but for the majority of the game they were probably throwing mid-to-high 80s and varying their speeds. Lesser pitchers were probably throwing low 80s and maybe approaching 88-89 a few times per game. It makes absolutely no logical sense to think that those guys were throwing complete games of 120+ pitches every third day all season long and throwing 90s on every pitch, like many do today. No pitcher would have lasted doing that.

Of course, even pacing themselves, some pitchers were still going to break down with that much work.

packs · #8 08-05-2021, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ricky

Very true.

I think what you had in the 1900-1920 era were pitchers who pitched hard only when they had to. I'm sure Walter Johnson and Smoky Joe Wood hit 93-95 mph for a few pitches each game, but for the majority of the game they were probably throwing mid-to-high 80s and varying their speeds. Lesser pitchers were probably throwing low 80s and maybe approaching 88-89 a few times per game. It makes absolutely no logical sense to think that those guys were throwing complete games of 120+ pitches every third day all season long and throwing 90s on every pitch, like many do today. No pitcher would have lasted doing that.

Of course, even pacing themselves, some pitchers were still going to break down with that much work.

That's what pitching is though if you want to throw 9 innings. It would be a little strange to think the last pitch and the first pitch were constant the entire game.

Peter_Spaeth · #9 08-05-2021, 11:53 AM

I love the story, probably apocryphal, of the hitter who took three straight strikes from Johnson and complained to the umpire that the third one sounded low.

Ricky · #10 08-05-2021, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by packs

That's what pitching is though if you want to throw 9 innings. It would be a little strange to think the last pitch and the first pitch were constant the entire game.

Understood, but guys today aren't throwing 9 innings. Today, pitchers might range between 89-96 for 5-6 innings. Back then, pitchers might range between 79-86 for 9 innings and only hit the upper levels if they were in a jam.

eliotdeutsch · #11 08-05-2021, 12:03 PM

Always think this is interesting watch whenever these discussions come up.

https://www.ted.com/talks/david_epst...ronger/up-next

packs · #12 08-05-2021, 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ricky

Understood, but guys today aren't throwing 9 innings. Today, pitchers might range between 89-96 for 5-6 innings. Back then, pitchers might range between 79-86 for 9 innings and only hit the upper levels if they were in a jam.

I looked at Cobb's splits for his career:

1st at Bat against SP: 340 overall
3rd at bat against SP: 351 overall

Better the 3rd time around but not giving me the impression the guy in the first inning was all that different from the guy in the 9th. That may play to what you're saying, or it may suggest that pitchers were more durable when they were throwing more innings.

jingram058 · #13 08-05-2021, 12:03 PM

Well if you're just going to pretend that pitchers back then were throwing little league or pee wee speeds after "wearing out" over 9 innings (if that were true, why didn't Cobb or Jackson or Ruth hit .500 or higher?), and just ignore what the players themselves said about pitching, and think everything is so much better today, and that Tommy John surgery isn't rampant today after pitching less than 6 innings a game or less than 200 innings a year, then go ahead and say whatever. You say the pitching today is so much above that era that it's like us over the amoeba, so obviously it must be. You have all the etched in stone, irrefutable metrics.

jingram058 · #14 08-05-2021, 12:08 PM

How is it that Chapman of the Indians was killed by a little league ball? Oh yes, he wasn't wearing his full head, full face crash helmet, and ballplayers heads just weren't as thick as heads today.

Peter_Spaeth · #15 08-05-2021, 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jingram058

Well if you're just going to pretend that pitchers back then were throwing little league or pee wee speeds after "wearing out" over 9 innings (if that were true, why didn't Cobb or Jackson or Ruth hit .500 or higher?), and just ignore what the players themselves said about pitching, and think everything is so much better today, and that Tommy John surgery isn't rampant today after pitching less than 6 innings a game or less than 200 innings a year, then go ahead and say whatever. You say the pitching today is so much above that era that it's like us over the amoeba, so obviously it must be. You have all the etched in stone, irrefutable metrics.

Cobb, Jackson etc. didn't hit 500 because they too were products of the same era in terms of athletic evolution. The abilities of pitchers relative to batters is probably relatively constant over time, and when it gets disproportionate you see subtle changes like mound height or fence adjustments to keep it balanced.

Ricky · #16 08-05-2021, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jingram058

Well if you're just going to pretend that pitchers back then were throwing little league or pee wee speeds after "wearing out" over 9 innings (if that were true, why didn't Cobb or Jackson or Ruth hit .500 or higher?), and just ignore what the players themselves said about pitching, and think everything is so much better today, and that Tommy John surgery isn't rampant today after pitching less than 6 innings a game or less than 200 innings a year, then go ahead and say whatever. You say the pitching today is so much above that era that it's like us over the amoeba, so obviously it must be. You have all the etched in stone, irrefutable metrics.

So pitchers in 1910 were bigger, stronger, more durable than pitchers today? Or maybe they just didn't exert themselves as much and pout as much strain on their arms. And were players back then stronger than today's players? How did they get those 48 oz bats around on 100 mph fast balls when many of them were 5'7, 165 pounds?

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