ebay finds that PWCC engaged in shill bidding?

[Buythatcard]

It will be nice to see PWCC gone. They have tarnished the business with their suspected shilling.

Maybe, eBay can start paying attention to the other Sellers who have followed the rules and have been paying their fees for years.

We can get back to a nice honest business.

[taul166]

I just received an email from PWCC confirming the ebay suspension, so the action taken by ebay is true.

[JollyElm]

‘When elephants fight, the grass gets trampled.’

Although that idiom has a different connotation, I'm wondering if this move will finally be the first step in an overall easing of (skyrocketing) prices. Without their shilled prices clogging up the "Auction Prices Realized" database, perhaps 'real' sales will now define the price points.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

‘When elephants fight, the grass gets trampled.’

Although that idiom has a different connotation, I'm wondering if this move will finally be the first step in an overall easing of (skyrocketing) prices. Without their shilled prices clogging up the "Auction Prices Realized" database, perhaps 'real' sales will now define the price points.

I don't think this changes much at all in terms of the overall market. The people doing the shill bidding are the people sending in consignments and flippers who are trying to artificially inflate sold listings prices of cards that they own. They won't stop just because PWCC is gone. All those cards are just going to get sent to other consignment companies. They're still going to shill bid these auctions, they're just going to be doing it with Probstein or 4SC or whoever else now.

The responsibility to prevent shill bidding lies solely on eBay's shoulders, not the consignment companies.

[cannonballsun]

The banning of PWCC is a huge and drastic move by eBay, a move that will surely cost them money. As businesses are always driven by the desire to make money, first and foremost, there must be a very compelling reason for them to do it. The only reason that makes sense to me is that the long awaited FBI investigation is coming to a close, and PWCC is going to be hit with Mastro-like charges. EBay wants to separate themselves from PWCC, and that investigation, and those charges.
Of course, this is only my opinion. I have no facts to back this up.
I can't see eBay doing this out of spite because PWCC is going to make their own auction site. A business that operates on spite is a very unprofessional business, and all their execs should be canned, if that's what they are doing.
As always, time will tell, but this is a huge move. By the way, I didn't get the email from eBay. I do believe I am on PWCC's email list as I receive email from them all the time.
I did buy one item from PWCC, but I believe it was the only one I ever bought from them. It was an large, ungraded lot of 1962 Jell-O cards. That is my number one collecting interest, so I went for it. I have bid on other items that they have for sale, but I always get outbid. Their items generally sell for higher prices than I am willing to pay.

[mrreality68]

Alot happened in a very very short time.

We will have to wait and see if there are any further explanations from either side and
Time will tell what the fallout is from it

Stay Tuned

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

to all of those who are saying Ebay will miss PWCC's money:

PWCC did around 200 million in sales on Ebay last year. The rumor is they pay somewhere between 1 and 3% to Ebay. That's $2 - $6 Million for the year. In 2020 Ebay did over 10 BILLION in revenue.

For those of you saying Ebay doesn't want the competition from PWCC:

Unless PWCC is opening a site where users can sell their own items, it's not competition, it's just another auction company.

Big players in the hobby are fly specks in the world of fortune 500 companies. Does that mean Ebay didn't do this out of spite? Hell no. It could be very similar to an old tenet of racketeering. You make an example of one guy so the next guy doesn't get any bright ideas.

[chadeast]

Originally Posted by cannonballsun

The banning of PWCC is a huge and drastic move by eBay, a move that will surely cost them money. As businesses are always driven by the desire to make money, first and foremost, there must be a very compelling reason for them to do it. The only reason that makes sense to me is that the long awaited FBI investigation is coming to a close, and PWCC is going to be hit with Mastro-like charges. EBay wants to separate themselves from PWCC, and that investigation, and those charges.
Of course, this is only my opinion. I have no facts to back this up.
I can't see eBay doing this out of spite because PWCC is going to make their own auction site.

+1 to all. Just the thought of being associated with a federal investigation, even if nothing eventually comes from it, is probably enough for Ebay to punt on the $6 million a year revenue.

[jingram058]

Is there a chance this move by eBay on PWCC has any effect at all on Dean's?

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by cannonballsun

The banning of PWCC is a huge and drastic move by eBay, a move that will surely cost them money. As businesses are always driven by the desire to make money, first and foremost, there must be a very compelling reason for them to do it. The only reason that makes sense to me is that the long awaited FBI investigation is coming to a close, and PWCC is going to be hit with Mastro-like charges. EBay wants to separate themselves from PWCC, and that investigation, and those charges.
Of course, this is only my opinion. I have no facts to back this up.
I can't see eBay doing this out of spite because PWCC is going to make their own auction site. A business that operates on spite is a very unprofessional business, and all their execs should be canned, if that's what they are doing.
As always, time will tell, but this is a huge move. By the way, I didn't get the email from eBay. I do believe I am on PWCC's email list as I receive email from them all the time.
I did buy one item from PWCC, but I believe it was the only one I ever bought from them. It was an large, ungraded lot of 1962 Jell-O cards. That is my number one collecting interest, so I went for it. I have bid on other items that they have for sale, but I always get outbid. Their items generally sell for higher prices than I am willing to pay.

Ebay has operated out of spite for almost their entire existence. Check out what they did to the ECommerceBytes folks.

They're successful despite their own seemingly constant sabotage, because they have a near monopoly on the type of service they provide...are very protective of it...have constantly instituted various forms of price hikes with very little push back...and do this while having to hold zero inventory of their own.

It's just software, servers, mediocre programmers and poorly paid customer service people. It's the type of overhead most companies would kill for, but a service nobody else can really provide. They really came along at the exact right time, for their type of business.

They don't care about shilling or fraud. If they did they would have announced a few very simple policy decisions along with their PWCC take down. They did not.

[1954 topps]

PWCC already has their own platform for selling and they've already established themselves as the largest auction house in the business. People will swarm to their site every auction like they always do because collectors be crazy. Regardless of shill bidding or not people will still buy from them in future auctions because they have it all. If you're worried about shill bidding just pick a max number in your head and don't go over it just like any other auction.

I believe eBay was already aware PWCC has intentions of leaving their platform soon as they've already tested having their own auctions. The fees are high and they can do it in-house for less. So they're mad and throwing them under the bus, probably for good reasons but about a decade late. Gee thanks eBay for trying to portray being the golden child here, you haven't been a partner in crime the whole time at all...bye ebay, you won't be missed. It's not that hard to run this business. Oh Hello Sirius and your weekly auctions!

I've bought from PWCC many times just like the next collector and will continue to do so because they have what I'm looking for. Meanwhile I end up recycling dozens of catalogs every year from all the auction houses that don't have anything to add to my collection.

Examine your cards carefully when you get them regardless of who you're buying from. PWCC or elsewhere, it's your money, you better know what you're getting.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Buythatcard

It will be nice to see PWCC gone. They have tarnished the business with their suspected shilling.

Maybe, eBay can start paying attention to the other Sellers who have followed the rules and have been paying their fees for years.

We can get back to a nice honest business.

Not gone at all. Brentsy were moving to their own platform anyhow this will just accelerate things. As I said on the other forum (I think it was there) they are as resilient as a hydra. It's no secret what I think of them, but I would not make the mistake of underestimating them.

[Buythatcard]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Not gone at all. Brentsy were moving to their own platform anyhow this will just accelerate things. As I said on the other forum (I think it was there) they are as resilient as a hydra. It's no secret what I think of them, but I would not make the mistake of underestimating them.

Atleast they will be gone from eBay.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Buythatcard

Atleast they will be gone from eBay.

True that.

[Johnny630]

Teflon Don.


Can the VCP Gentleman please remove his sales from his platform ??!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Teflon Don.


Can the VCP Gentleman please remove his sales from his platform ??!

LOL for some cards that would mean deleting half the prices.

[Republicaninmass]

And still people ADMIT they bid and consign to these sheisters

I cant feel bad when, not if, they get burned

[53toppscollector]

I think this was clearly a case of ebay knowing that PWCC was about to launch their own auction site, so they wanted to put a black mark on them before they completely got all the way out the door.

I've bought from PWCC before, I've gotten great deals, and I've also had auctions where it felt like I got screwed. That always seemed like the cost of doing business.

To think that ebay just found info about PWCC shill bidding is hilarious though. They clearly know that PWCC and probstein auctions are big targets for shill bidding and other shenanigans. I think the timing of it was just to take a final shot at PWCC before they packed up their things and left.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by 53toppscollector

I think this was clearly a case of ebay knowing that PWCC was about to launch their own auction site, so they wanted to put a black mark on them before they completely got all the way out the door.

I've bought from PWCC before, I've gotten great deals, and I've also had auctions where it felt like I got screwed. That always seemed like the cost of doing business.

To think that ebay just found info about PWCC shill bidding is hilarious though. They clearly know that PWCC and probstein auctions are big targets for shill bidding and other shenanigans. I think the timing of it was just to take a final shot at PWCC before they packed up their things and left.

And could it also be to possibly reduce/eliminate any potential blowback on Ebay? If something ever did go down on PWCC, and despite all evidence, Ebay never did anything about it, could they be brought into repurcussions and potential liability by never having acted on what they should have seen/known? By Ebay doing what they are doing now, could this be a partial CYA on their part in regards to PWCC? If nothing else, it doesn't put PWCC in a good light for a lot more people than already didn't like/trust them. Not to mention, this move by Ebay will likely put at least a temporary financial squeeze on PWCC, at least until they can get whatever new platform/program they were going to be starting up or moving to fully functioning and operating at least close to 100%.

[55koufax]

The mess in Afghanistan? Or the eBay - PWCC mess here at home?

[Jersey City Giants]

Originally Posted by Buythatcard

Atleast they will be gone from eBay.

can't see their own platform working nearly as well for them, especially since it was confirmed to all of us that they were shilling. I won't be bidding anymore for sure.

PS - Just got my 1921 Exhibit from you on ebay, many thanks.

[Nunzio11]

Originally Posted by Jersey City Giants

can't see their own platform working nearly as well for them, especially since it was confirmed to all of us that they were shilling. I won't be bidding anymore for sure.

PS - Just got my 1921 Exhibit from you on ebay, many thanks.

That was my thought. I'm sure this is not the publicity and fanfare PWCC was looking for when launching their own platform. Imagine the shenanigans that will go on when bidders no longer have the guise of Ebay protection to fall back on if they feel there were wronged by unethical practices.

[Republicaninmass]

As the housing bubble inflated and people got in over their head Congress was involved in "steroids in baseball"


This time, maybe they will go after sportscards as a nice distraction.

[conor912]

Originally Posted by Nunzio11

That was my thought. I'm sure this is not the publicity and fanfare PWCC was looking for when launching their own platform. Imagine the shenanigans that will go on when bidders no longer have the guise of Ebay protection to fall back on if they feel there were wronged by unethical practices.

This was my first thought. The inmates running the asylum. It’s hard to believe that shilling isn’t so ingrained in the culture there they could have a really hard time running a legit AH, even if they wanted to. The few things I ever bought from them years ago were things I just stumbled upon while browsing Ebay. I can’t see myself ever visiting their site and I doubt I’m the only one.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by conor912

This was my first thought. The inmates running the asylum. It’s hard to believe that shilling isn’t so ingrained in the culture there they could have a really hard time running a legit AH, even if they wanted to. The few things I ever bought from them years ago were things I just stumbled upon while browsing Ebay. I can’t see myself ever visiting their site and I doubt I’m the only one.

Anyone who does frequent their site will get exactly what they deserve. I personally will stick with reputable and ethical sources such as LOTG, REA and Hakes.

I believe this sudden sweeping move by eBay was done in an effort to minimize its liability (and culpability) and to distance themselves from PWCC, who is under investigation. Perhaps the FBI had a hand in expediting this drastic action. Based on what we learned from Mastro, it's apparently easier/preferable for Law Enforcement to issue indictments on shill bidding than fraud from card alteration (although I wish they could bring charges for both).

Simply put... Law Enforcement's ability to prove shill bidding (from obtained records) is probably much more cut and dried than proving fraud and criminal intent to deceive.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Not gone at all. Brentsy were moving to their own platform anyhow this will just accelerate things. As I said on the other forum (I think it was there) they are as resilient as a hydra. It's no secret what I think of them, but I would not make the mistake of underestimating them.

Agreed, but don't you think not being allowed on Ebay won't have some serious negative effect to PWCC's brand and sales going forward?

Unless, it has often been said on this forum how many times that a poster wished someone would set up a new online sales platform to compete, or at least offer a better alternative to, Ebay. Could that possibly be the intent/end goal that PWCC may have been looking into in possibly starting their own new online platform? If someone was going to do it, it would make sense for them to already have a strong market presence and sales, which PWCC sure seems to have, despite the pronounced lack of love they normally get on this forum.