ebay finds that PWCC engaged in shill bidding?

[chadeast]

Originally Posted by butchie_t

It is very simple for me. I set the highest price that I am comfortable in paying and submit it. If it goes above that price. I move on to the next auction of a like item. No science or woo involved in the decision making on my end. Just the bottom (or top) line for me.

The question is how you arrive at that highest bid value. If you use prices previously paid on the same or similar cards in order to decide how much you are comfortable paying, then you are exposed to the shilling problem. If you use no historical sales data in deciding your highest price, but others bidding against you are using that historical pricing to make their bids, and you lose the item as a result, then you are still exposed to the problem.

[butchie_t]

Originally Posted by chadeast

The question is how you arrive at that highest bid value. If you use prices previously paid on the same or similar cards in order to decide how much you are comfortable paying, then you are exposed to the shilling problem. If you use no historical sales data in deciding your highest price, but others bidding against you are using that historical pricing to make their bids, and you lose the item as a result, then you are still exposed to the problem.

It is not that complicated, I set a price based simply on what I want to pay for the item. I am not exposed to anything. I set my price and if the bidding goes up to my price and I get the card at the high end, so be it and I get the card. I am not exposed to anything but the amount I am willing to pay. Nothing more, nothing less.

[egbeachley]

Originally Posted by butchie_t

It is not that complicated, I set a price based simply on what I want to pay for the item. I am not exposed to anything. I set my price and if the bidding goes up to my price and I get the card at the high end, so be it and I get the card. I am not exposed to anything but the amount I am willing to pay. Nothing more, nothing less.

That’s called being an “enabler”. Shillers prey on people like you because you are happy paying your highest price when, without shilling, you would get many items for much less.

[butchie_t]

Originally Posted by egbeachley

That’s called being an “enabler”. Shillers prey on people like you because you are happy paying your highest price when, without shilling, you would get many items for much less.

I am enabler....that is rich.

Scenario for you. Once card sells for x amount and has a buy it now price on it.

Another card starts out at y price then ends up at x price. (Both the same price).

What do you call that? No one enabled anyone with either sale of the card.

And in this scenario we are talking about the same card type just different methods of how it is sold.

Butch Turner

[drcy]

[egbeachley]

Originally Posted by butchie_t

I am enabler....that is rich.

Scenario for you. Once card sells for x amount and has a buy it now price on it.

Another card starts out at y price then ends up at x price. (Both the same price).

What do you call that? No one enabled anyone with either sale of the card.

And in this scenario we are talking about the same card type just different methods of how it is sold.

Butch Turner

Yep, the one example that makes no difference and supports your case. How about this.

Your highest price is $1,000. Someone is willing to pay $500 so you should win it at $510. But shiller boosts it to $999. You win for $1,000.

Now repeat 10 times per year with the $500 being some other number either higher or lower, doesn’t matter. My preference is to win all 10 auctions at a total cost well below $10,000. I might even be able to buy more than 10 items that year.

You are being an enabler and are being preyed upon. The rest of us put in max bids hoping and expecting they will go for less.

[BeanTown]

So for those PWCC customers who want to take their items out of the PWCC vault, will that create a taxable event?

[conor912]

Originally Posted by BeanTown

So for those PWCC customers who want to take their items out of the PWCC vault, will that create a taxable event?

Unless you live in Oregon, I would sure think it does!

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by BeanTown

So for those PWCC customers who want to take their items out of the PWCC vault, will that create a taxable event?

No, it's not a taxable event unless you sell it. At least not with respect to income tax. However, if you purchased items on ebay and had them shipped directly to your PWCC vault, which allowed you to avoid paying sales tax on those transactions since they are located in Oregon, then you will have to pay any applicable sales taxes that you previously avoided when they ship those cards back to you unless you have a resale certificate on file with PWCC.

[butchie_t]

Originally Posted by egbeachley

Yep, the one example that makes no difference and supports your case. How about this.

Your highest price is $1,000. Someone is willing to pay $500 so you should win it at $510. But shiller boosts it to $999. You win for $1,000.

Now repeat 10 times per year with the $500 being some other number either higher or lower, doesn’t matter. My preference is to win all 10 auctions at a total cost well below $10,000. I might even be able to buy more than 10 items that year.

You are being an enabler and are being preyed upon. The rest of us put in max bids hoping and expecting they will go for less.

Pretty much blew you own argument out of the water with your very last sentence.

"The rest of us put in max bids hoping and expecting they will go for less."

Me too!! ain't that funny. I set it and don't care, you set it and care. Laughable.

Nice talk,

Butch Turner.

[BobC]

I am totally against shilling and seeing someone get run up in price. But the other complaint by many people not directly involved in such a shilled transaction is that it then possibly sets a higher false price for the card that was shilled so that when they later go to acquire that same card, they may end up having to pay more for it than they may have wanted. But if someone did put up say a $100 max bid on a card that would normally only sell for $30-$40, and it got shilled up to say $80, is that really a false and inflated market price?

If the person who ended up winning it at $80 was actually willing to go $100 for it, then isn't $100 the true market price and they actually got the card they wanted at less? I always thought the definition of market value/price was what someone was willing to pay for something in an open, arms length transaction. But in reality, isn't what normally ends up getting recorded as the highest price someone is willing to pay actually based on the second highest amount someone is willing to pay, and not necessarily the true highest amount?

I understand the concept of market manipulation through shill bidding, but for that to be what is actually occuring, don't the people behind the market manipulation scheme actually have to end up winning (and paying for) the overly priced cards they are trying to manipulate? If they ended up just increasing what a legitimate buyer was actually willing to pay for the card, haven't they really just succeeded in exposing a more true, top market value for the card?

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Market price at auction needs two people to determine it accurately, and they need to be working in good faith. If one person is willing to pay $100 and the next highest is willing to pay $50, the market price is one bid past $50, not $100.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by BobC

I am totally against shilling and seeing someone get run up in price. But the other complaint by many people not directly involved in such a shilled transaction is that it then possibly sets a higher false price for the card that was shilled so that when they later go to acquire that same card, they may end up having to pay more for it than they may have wanted. But if someone did put up say a $100 max bid on a card that would normally only sell for $30-$40, and it got shilled up to say $80, is that really a false and inflated market price?

If the person who ended up winning it at $80 was actually willing to go $100 for it, then isn't $100 the true market price and they actually got the card they wanted at less? I always thought the definition of market value/price was what someone was willing to pay for something in an open, arms length transaction. But in reality, isn't what normally ends up getting recorded as the highest price someone is willing to pay actually based on the second highest amount someone is willing to pay, and not necessarily the true highest amount?

I understand the concept of market manipulation through shill bidding, but for that to be what is actually occuring, don't the people behind the market manipulation scheme actually have to end up winning (and paying for) the overly priced cards they are trying to manipulate? If they ended up just increasing what a legitimate buyer was actually willing to pay for the card, haven't they really just succeeded in exposing a more true, top market value for the card?

If I understand your point, I think the answer is no. People pay based on what other people are bidding and what a card has sold for. Take a single auction. I own ten other examples of the card being offered, which has sold before for 100 max. I hope to push up the price so as to unload some of mine, so I bid 125, hoping a "legitimate" buyer thinks it's a real bid and that the card is going up, and tops me at 130. Odds are I will hook at least one such buyer. I do this gradually over time with 5 more examples and eventually the price of the card gets to 200. I would call that a manipulated price, not a new true one. And I haven't won any.

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by butchie_t

It is not that complicated, I set a price based simply on what I want to pay for the item. I am not exposed to anything. I set my price and if the bidding goes up to my price and I get the card at the high end, so be it and I get the card. I am not exposed to anything but the amount I am willing to pay. Nothing more, nothing less.

You like paying the absolute highest price you're comfortable with every time?

If you're willing to pay $100 for a card and someone lists it for $80, do you throw in an extra $20?

[butchie_t]

Originally Posted by Fballguy

You like paying the absolute highest price you're comfortable with every time?

If you're willing to pay $100 for a card and someone lists it for $80, do you throw in an extra $20?

Try not to be factious. Of course not. I would hope there was a make offer price and see what happened. But if the $80 price is what I am willing to pay what does it matter to anyone else? If it is a card I need or want. Sold American.

Seriously, this is not that hard to understand.

Butch Turner