1909 E90-1 Joe Jackson value compared to others

[Rhotchkiss]

In my opinion, Joe Jackson's legacy transcends baseball due to (i) the Black Sox scandal, (ii) the fact that he is not in the HOF because of it, and (iii) the movie Field of Dreams and the games now being played there. Not only was he one of the best players of his era, and who knows where he would have ended had he not been banned from baseball, but his story and legacy is larger than the sport, this latter fact having a huge impact on value and desirability.

Joe's T210 is, in my opinion, a top 10 card. You could argue that his 1914 CJ is also a top 10 baseball card. Recently, his M101-4/5 cards have skyrocketed and his E90-1 cards seem to be following suit. The things that hold the E90-1 back are (a) its not very rare, (b) its very ugly, and (c) the set is not nearly as popular/collected as T206. That said, I agree that the E90-1, and all of Joe's cards, are poised for a large jump (and some are already seeing it).

As more big money comes into the hobby, the obvious card is the T206 Wagner. Interest in the Wagner brings interest to T206, Wagner in general (definitely experiencing a recent spike), and blue chip pre-war players. I believe the top blue chip players are Ruth, Cobb, Wagner, Gehrig and Jackson (not necessarily in that order). For this reason and because Jackson has a larger-than-the sport legacy, his cards, including the E90-1 should keep going up.

[ThomasL]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

In my opinion, Joe Jackson's legacy transcends baseball due to (i) the Black Sox scandal, (ii) the fact that he is not in the HOF because of it, and (iii) the movie Field of Dreams and the games now being played there. Not only was he one of the best players of his era, and who knows where he would have ended had he not been banned from baseball, but his story and legacy is larger than the sport, this latter fact having a huge impact on value and desirability.

Joe's T210 is, in my opinion, a top 10 card. You could argue that his 1914 CJ is also a top 10 baseball card. Recently, his M101-4/5 cards have skyrocketed and his E90-1 cards seem to be following suit. The things that hold the E90-1 back are (a) its not very rare, (b) its very ugly, and (c) the set is not nearly as popular/collected as T206. That said, I agree that the E90-1, and all of Joe's cards, are poised for a large jump (and some are already seeing it).

As more big money comes into the hobby, the obvious card is the T206 Wagner. Interest in the Wagner brings interest to T206, Wagner in general (definitely experiencing a recent spike), and blue chip pre-war players. I believe the top blue chip players are Ruth, Cobb, Wagner, Gehrig and Jackson (not necessarily in that order). For this reason and because Jackson has a larger-than-the sport legacy, his cards, including the E90-1 should keep going up.

This pretty much says it. I have been tracking sells of probably the cheapest Jackson card you can buy, the w514 strip card, and that card has really jumped in value the last year and has been trending up the last 5 at least...

There is no real comparison for Jackson as his fame has been fueled by pop culture and is not a Hall of Famer. I would argue his card values, including his rookie, are over priced because of this and will continue to trend up as we have seen recently.

He is a borderline HOFer who is famous/infamous bc of the Black Sox scandal...the two comparable players in that regard would be Eddie Cicotte and Hal Chase and their rookie cards dont even come close to Jackson's

If you want to talk about HOFers that were in the same era and comparable to Jackson in popularity and skill... Tris Speaker is the best comparison IMO and Jackson's cards sell significantly higher than his...price compare JJ and Spoke Cracker Jacks...you have to get some of the rare backed T206 Speakers to compete with low grade E90-1 Jacksons...the difference Jackson was banned for his scandal (Speaker wasnt) and Jackson became a pop culture baseball icon in the 1980s...

[ThomasL]

Ruth, Cobb, Gehrig were much bigger names and more popular players DURING their playing careers and big time media superstars...Joe Jackson was not...yes he was popular but not on their level...IF the Black Sox scandal had not happened Joe Jackson would not be very well known today and his cards would be SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper...if he made the HOF they would be more valued yes, but still not like Cobb or Ruth...I will stand in the "his cards are over valued" corner based on infamy and mostly bc of pop culture.

[BobbyStrawberry]

FWIW, I think it's an absolutely gorgeous card. Just waiting for the price to be right on one...

[packs]

This card is a turd that's why. I'm trying to think of another card of its stature that is such a terrible looking card. Maybe the 1938 Goudey DiMaggio?

[BobbyStrawberry]

Originally Posted by packs

This card is a turd that's why. I'm trying to think of another card of its stature that is such a terrible looking card. Maybe the 1938 Goudey DiMaggio?

Lol, I never fail to be surprised by the comments on here.

[bbcard1]

Don't get me wrong as it's not that I don't wish I had done it, but I passed on one in Houston because it was slightly out of register and looked like a red hitler mustache.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by ThomasL

This pretty much says it. I have been tracking sells of probably the cheapest Jackson card you can buy, the w514 strip card, and that card has really jumped in value the last year and has been trending up the last 5 at least...

There is no real comparison for Jackson as his fame has been fueled by pop culture and is not a Hall of Famer. I would argue his card values, including his rookie, are over priced because of this and will continue to trend up as we have seen recently.

He is a borderline HOFer who is famous/infamous bc of the Black Sox scandal...the two comparable players in that regard would be Eddie Cicotte and Hal Chase and their rookie cards dont even come close to Jackson's

If you want to talk about HOFers that were in the same era and comparable to Jackson in popularity and skill... Tris Speaker is the best comparison IMO and Jackson's cards sell significantly higher than his...price compare JJ and Spoke Cracker Jacks...you have to get some of the rare backed T206 Speakers to compete with low grade E90-1 Jacksons...the difference Jackson was banned for his scandal (Speaker wasnt) and Jackson became a pop culture baseball icon in the 1980s...

Through the 1920 season

Ty Cobb .369/.423/.512/.935
Joe Jackson .356/.423/.517/.940
Tris Speaker .342/.412/.484/.896

Joe Jackson was compariable to Ty Cobb. He hit for a lower average, but he got on base at the same rate and hit with slightly better power than Cobb. Joe Jackson was a significantly better hitter than Tris Speaker. If he hadn't been banned from baseball, it is very likely that Jackson would have been part of the first HOF class along with Wagner, Cobb and Ruth. Joe Jackson would have benefited greatly from the livelier ball of the 1920s.

Yes, Joe Jackson was banned from baseball, but Tris Speaker (along with Ty Cobb) actually took part in fixing a major league baseball game.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by rats60

Through the 1920 season

Ty Cobb .369/.423/.512/.935
Joe Jackson .356/.423/.517/.940
Tris Speaker .342/.412/.484/.896

Joe Jackson was compariable to Ty Cobb. He hit for a lower average, but he got on base at the same rate and hit with slightly better power than Cobb. Joe Jackson was a significantly better hitter than Tris Speaker. If he hadn't been banned from baseball, it is very likely that Jackson would have been part of the first HOF class along with Wagner, Cobb and Ruth. Joe Jackson would have benefited greatly from the livelier ball of the 1920s.

Yes, Joe Jackson was banned from baseball, but Tris Speaker (along with Ty Cobb) actually took part in fixing a major league baseball game.

Leaving out the part where Leonard was unable to provide a single shred of evidence to support his claim whatsoever.

[mrreality68]

Originally Posted by rats60

Through the 1920 season

Ty Cobb .369/.423/.512/.935
Joe Jackson .356/.423/.517/.940
Tris Speaker .342/.412/.484/.896

Joe Jackson was compariable to Ty Cobb. He hit for a lower average, but he got on base at the same rate and hit with slightly better power than Cobb. Joe Jackson was a significantly better hitter than Tris Speaker. If he hadn't been banned from baseball, it is very likely that Jackson would have been part of the first HOF class along with Wagner, Cobb and Ruth. Joe Jackson would have benefited greatly from the livelier ball of the 1920s.

Yes, Joe Jackson was banned from baseball, but Tris Speaker (along with Ty Cobb) actually took part in fixing a major league baseball game.

Joe Jackson was a very popular player during his time and drew fans into the stands.
He was a Great player during his career

Jackson never won a batting title, which can be mostly attributed to the fact that Cobb took home the crown an incredible 12 times between 1907 and 1919. Even in 1911, when Jackson hit an amazing.408, Cobb bested him at .419.

And this is what Cobb said about Jackson

In an article that appeared in the June 5, 1942 issue of the Record Journal (Meriden, CT), he spoke at length about why Jackson was the ultimate hitter:
“I don’t care how we feel or what some folks may say about some of the tragic incidents in that man’s baseball life. You can’t take away from him the fact he was the greatest hitter the game has ever known.
“He was greater than I, although I managed to top him in the records each year we fought it out for the batting titles. Jackson could hit any kind of pitch, from his shoe tops to his head. There may have been some things I could do better, such as drag bunts, and they say I had a faster getaway from the plate on the swing. But Jackson never was fooled up there, and I think he had the best eyes, and the keenest reflexes of any hitter I ever saw.”

[ThomasL]

Im trying to convey comparable as a player AND (probably more importantly when you are debating issues drive by player popularity which card value is one of those things) popularity. Cobb was vastly more popular with fans around the league than Jackson who like I said was popular just not as much and Cobb...my point was Cobb was on another level and Ruth well no one will ever be on his level of popularity. Speaker I still say is the best comparison to make here if you want to try to play the what if game with Jackson and then translate that to card sales...I may have went a little over the top in that Jackson would be largely forgotten, maybe maybe not, Speaker isnt really forgotten but how many casuals know who Speaker was...

My main point...
without the scandal Jackson's rookie card (and all cards for that matter) would track along with Speaker's rookie cards and others of his (save for rare backed T206s)

Jackson is well known now bc of the scandal and more so the 2 movies in the 1980s and that has driven his sales...without that he would not have the appeal of the BIG names like Ruth, Cobb, Gehrig, Jackie, Mantle and with it he barely does...which I guess is kind of the point of this topic...

[ThomasL]

Another point...what were the card sales and how did they compare prior to 1988? That would tell you a lot when trying to compare and evaluate things like this. Compare card sales of your targets prior to FOD and 8MO being released with those of Jacksons, and then track them post 1988.

[drcy]

Not that there's anything wrong with that

[rats60]

Originally Posted by ThomasL

Im trying to convey comparable as a player AND (probably more importantly when you are debating issues drive by player popularity which card value is one of those things) popularity. Cobb was vastly more popular with fans around the league than Jackson who like I said was popular just not as much and Cobb...my point was Cobb was on another level and Ruth well no one will ever be on his level of popularity. Speaker I still say is the best comparison to make here if you want to try to play the what if game with Jackson and then translate that to card sales...I may have went a little over the top in that Jackson would be largely forgotten, maybe maybe not, Speaker isnt really forgotten but how many casuals know who Speaker was...

My main point...
without the scandal Jackson's rookie card (and all cards for that matter) would track along with Speaker's rookie cards and others of his (save for rare backed T206s)

Jackson is well known now bc of the scandal and more so the 2 movies in the 1980s and that has driven his sales...without that he would not have the appeal of the BIG names like Ruth, Cobb, Gehrig, Jackie, Mantle and with it he barely does...which I guess is kind of the point of this topic...

Lou Gehrig was second to Babe Ruth during most of his career. He is still an all time great whose cards are worth a lot of money. Joe Jackson is very similar. I disagree that he is only known because of a scandal. He is known because he was a .356 career hitter. He was very popular player during his playing days as a "nice" alternative to Ty Cobb.

I started setting up at card shows in 1984. Jackson's cards were in heavy demand then. His Cracker Jack cards were worth more than Cobb due to his lack of cards, not being in the popular t-card sets. Those movies came out in 1988 and 1989 and didn't do a lot to his card prices as they were already high and out of most collectors budgets.

[investinrookies]

Enjoyed reading everyone's input and thoughts. To clarify, I was talking about comparing it to other key rookies but there are other examples that come to mind. As its been mentioned, he shouldn't be in the same price range as a ruth or gehrig rookie for example, but I dont think the Jackson rookie should be so far behind them either. Also some non rookie cards as well, take the T206 Plank for example. Obviously T206 is the most popular set, but both have similar pops. PSA pop of 77 for the plank and 92 for the Jackson. Right off, people think the Plank is a much rarer card, but its really not. Also, Jackson was a far better player. Does the T206 Plank card really warrant that much value over a Joe Jackson Rookie card from the same era with a pop difference of only 15? I get it, popular sets create huge premiums but were the ruth and gehrig rookies from popular sets for example? True Pre-War rookies are very few and far between, especially of the top tier players and all should be worth huge premiums over most other pre war cards. In my opinion Joe Jackson is no exception.