T206 Reference / Reflections.....Tuesday Nite Trivia

Pat R · #1 10-08-2021, 06:46 PM

Ted before you accuse me of attacking you here you know I sent you a private email over a year ago about using information I posted about the Brown Lenox as your own.

I posted this thread on 5-9-15 with no responses

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pat R

They're so scarce it could just be a coincidence but all 22 confirmed Brown
Lenox subjects are among the 75 AB 460 subjects.

I then posted on 10-20-2015 about them in an American Beauty thread you started

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pat R

I have mentioned this once before but it didn't receive any opinions either
way so I thought I would try it here.

All of the confirmed Brown Lenox subjects are also AB 460 subjects so I was
thinking it might be possible that some(or all) of the sheets used for the
AB 460's were also used for the Brown Lenox.

While the Brown Lenox is an extremely rare back (22 different subjects confirmed so far) it seems odd that none of the possible 34 non AB 460
subjects has been confirmed with a Brown Lenox. So could it be that not all Black Lenox subjects are possible with Brown Lenox and only AB 460 subjects are?

Quote:

Originally Posted by tedzan

Very interesting observation, Pat.

We do know that some of the sheets used to print the AB 460 backs were also used to print the UZIT backs.

But it remains to be seen if this is also true for the AB 460 cards and the brown LENOX cards, since (to date)
there are only 22 examples of the brown LENOX cards.

Furthermore, it is quite puzzling that 4 subjects (Lajoie, Overall, Pfeister, Wagner) of these 22 brown LENOX
cards have yet to be confirmed with black LENOX backs ? ? ? ?

Incidentally, there are 35 subjects that are AB 460 No-Prints (not 34).

TED Z
.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pat R

I agree with you Ted, it's not much to gauge off with only 22 confirmed subjects but with 32% of the subjects being AB 460 no prints you would think at least a couple of the Confirmed Brown Lenox would be from this group if they are a possible front back combo.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tedzan

In any event, I think this connection is worth tracking....who knows where it will lead us.

Only The Monster knows !

TED Z
.

You then started this thread a few months later on 1-16 2016 where you did give me credit for the 28 AB350/460 subjects

Quote:

Originally Posted by tedzan

American Lithographic (ALC) printed the AMERICAN BEAUTY 460, PIEDMONT 460 (Factory 42), LENOX, and UZIT cards circa...Feb 1911. Concurrently, ALC started producing
their Gold-bordered cards, beginning with their T80 (Military Series) which were printed with T206-type backs (LENOX, OLD MILL, TOLSTOI, UZIT) and CAIRO MONOPOL.
The latter T-brand back was printed using BROWN ink.

I contend that the T206 brown LENOX cards are simply the result an ALC printer who had just completed a press run of T80 cards with CAIRO MONOPOL backs, then failed to
switch to Black ink in order to proceed with the following press run of T206 black LENOX cards.

In time, if my theory proves to be true, we could discover as many as 75 subjects with brown LENOX backs. My 75 number tracks with the PIEDMONT 460 Factory 42 number.
Which comprises of 63 subjects from the 350/460 series plus 12 subjects from the 460-only series.

Also, it has been suggested by Pat R in another thread, that brown LENOX cards track with the 350/460 series subjects in the AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 press run (28 subjects).

In any event, we all know how extremely rare these brown LENOX cards are. And, this fact is consistent with the T80 CAIRO MONOPOL cards, which are very difficult to find.
I don't think that this is just a mere coincidence.

.

Currently, there are only 23 confirmed T206 subjects with brown LENOX backs......

350/460 series

Bradley (bat)
Burch (fielding)
Cobb (bat off shoulder)
Conroy (bat)
Jordan (bat)
Lajoie (bat)
Lake (no ball)
Leach (cap)
Leifield (bat)
Manning (pitching)
McQuillan (bat)
Overall (yellow sky)
Pfeister (throwing)
F. Smith (Chicago & Boston)
Wagner (bat on right shoulder)
Willetts
Willis (bat)

460-only series

Chase (trophy)
Latham
Marquard (pitching)
Merkle (throwing)
Schlei (portrait)
Wiltse (portrait-cap)

Show us your brown LENOX cards....and, any responses to this thread will be greatly appreciated.

TED Z
.

Then you abandoned that thread and started this one about those 28 subjects and claimed the theory as yours

https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=240525

Incidentally I told Art Martineau about the Jennings 3 weeks ago but I was waiting for the auction to end before posting about it.

tedzan · #2 10-08-2021, 09:44 PM

Hey guys,

Once again Pat R has "shot himself in the foot" !

I presented my theory about the Mutually-Exclusive printing of the 350/460 series cards on this forum on April 7, 2010. Pat's above post (#1336) is full of fabrications.
And it has become very tiresome.

Here are several excerpts from my Net54 thread on April 7-8th, 2010. Take the time to read them, then tell us: does this sound like I stole this theory from someone else ?

Here is my original presentation......

Quote:

Originally Posted by tedzan

4-7-2010

Regarding your..........

"I'm glad Jim R asked first because I respect his knowledge when it
comes to the tougher backs so the answer must not be obvious.
Why are they no-prints?"

It gets somewhat complicated; however, here's my answer to you..........

My observations of of several surveys of BROAD LEAF 460, Red HINDU, and UZIT cards......combined with my research
while putting together my AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 sub-set has resulted in what appears to be a well-defined pattern.

My theory is......American Lithographic (ALC) printed simultaneous press runs of BROAD LEAF 460 and Red HINDU cards
with fronts common to both (Winter of 1910). In the Spring of 1911, ALC printed simultaneous press runs of AMERICAN
BEAUTY 460 and UZIT cards (with fronts common to both).

Furthermore, because of the timeline difference (4 months) the BL 460 / Red HINDU pairs are mutually exclusive with the
AB 460 / UZIT pairs. Therefore, assuming my theory is true, this pattern allows us to predict which front/back combos
were printed, As a consequence, we are also have the ability to determine which front/back combos are NO-PRINTS.

The three lists of BROAD LEAF 460 that I have posted in this thread are the results of this research. I have a very high
confidence factor that these lists are an accurate representation of "The Monster" with respect to not only the BL 460
cards; but also, the AB 460, Red HINDU, and UZIT cards.

Thanks for your excellent question,

TED Z

Art Martineau responded 4-8-2010.....

Quote:

Originally Posted by rebelsart

Hello Ted,
Always enjoy reading your postings on the T206 back breakdowns.

I am confused by your BL460/Hindu red and AB460/Uzit patterns.

I show some cards in the 350/460 series that have been confirmed with multiples of these backs. For example:

Burch, fielding confirmed with BL460, Hindu Red, Lenox, Uzit.
Mullin, batting - my list shows I have seen this one with BL460, and have a Uzit.
Cobb, red - confirmed with BL460, Lenox, Uzit, and a PSA graded Hindu red.
Downey, batting - confirmed with BL460, Hindu Red, Lenox, Uzit.

Since we have no recorded front/back information until Bill Heitman began in 1980 we are still searching to confirm many of these possiblities. Every year we find some "new" combinations and add to these lists.
Art

I responded to Art Martineau 4-8-2010.....

Quote:

Originally Posted by tedzan

Here is what my research indicates......

Cobb (red portrait)......
Indeed, I have listed this card with a BL 460 back......but, I have to disagree with you that it exists with either a Red HINDU
back or, a UZIT back. The PSA graded Red HINDU (the only one ever seen), that was in last year's auction, is very suspect.
And, none of the Six Super Prints (of which this Cobb is one) were printed with the UZIT back.

Downey (batting)......
Do you have this card with a UZIT back ? I've never seen this card with a UZIT back.

Mullin (batting)......
I have this card with AB 460 and UZIT backs. I've never seen this card with a BL460 back.

Burch (fielding)......
The only one of these 4 backs I have of this card is an AB 460. I know that the Super-Set indicates that BL 460, Red HINDU,
and UZIT have been seen. But, neither of these 3 backs have been confirmed by anyone.

The approx. 4800 inputs on the Super-Set (S-S) are 99.5 % accurate. However, I have been suspect of some of this data.
So, I have contacted about a dozen people who have inputted such data to the S-S; and, it turned out in 6 cases that their
inputs were mistaken.
I tell you this because I'm skeptical about the BL 460 and/or the Red HINDU backs regarding Burch. Can you positively verify
if Burch exists with a BL 460 and/or a Red HINDU ?

Perhaps, Burch is the one anomaly to my AB 460 / UZIT or BL 460 / Red HINDU pattern theory. At this point, I cannot tell from
the data that exists. I'm hoping you can clarify this subject ?

Best regards,

TED Z

This story continues. If it is of any interest to any of you guys, click on this link: https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=122474

Meanwhile, let's hope Pat R is eventually cured of his "Ted derangement syndrome" that constantly attacks me with his fabricated "bull-s**t" posts,
that "hi-jacks" that given thread's meaningful conversation on said Topic.

TED Z
.

Pat R · #3 10-08-2021, 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tedzan

Hey guys,

Once again Pat R has "shot himself in the foot" !

I presented my theory about the Mutually-Exclusive printing of the 350/460 series cards on this forum on April 7, 2010. Pat's above post (#1336) is full of fabrications.
And it has become very tiresome.

Here are several excerpts from my Net54 thread on April 7-8th, 2010. Take the time to read them, then tell us: does this sound like I stole this theory from someone else ?

Here is my original presentation......

Art Martineau responded 4-8-2010.....

I responded to Art Martineau 4-8-2010.....

This story continues. If it is of any interest to any of you guys, click on this link: https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=122474

Meanwhile, let's hope Pat R is eventually cured of his "Ted derangement syndrome" that constantly attacks me with his fabricated "bull-s**t" posts,
that "hi-jacks" that given thread's meaningful conversation on said Topic.

TED Z
.

And I'm the one that attacks you?

This post has nothing to do with the Brown Lenox and you know it.

At least I show you enough respect to answer your questions. In the thread you posted a link to why did you go back and "correct a typo" on 1-14-2021 in all the posts that have your list in them in a thread that was last posted in on 4-24-2010?

tedzan · #4 10-08-2021, 11:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pat R

And I'm the one that attacks you?

This post has nothing to do with the Brown Lenox and you know it.

At least I show you enough respect to answer your questions. In the thread you posted a link to why did you go back and "correct a typo" on 1-14-2021 in all the posts that have your list in them in a thread that was last posted in on 4-24-2010?

Hey guy,
I am not the one who starts these negative, meaningless diatribes. There are very few threads in which I have posted in recent years in which you have had anything positive or
meaningful in your responses to my posts. You are constantly "hi-jacking" an interesting (or meaningful) discussion to insert your "negativism".

To be honest with you, yes I the react to your horse-crap. But, seriously speaking, I feel sorry for you. You have a certain talent in doing research in this hobby that is good. But,
you negate all that with your constant meaningless attacks.

I try to avoid such attacks....but, when you accuse me of "stealing" my theory from some one else, I am not going to allow you to get away with such a dishonest accusation.

As they say, if you have nothing good to say about some one, then don't say it at all. This forum was not intended to operate like the toxic social media ones do.

Finally, I have never initiated a negative comment on you. So, why do you persist to attack me ? ?

TED Z
.

Pat R · #5 10-09-2021, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tedzan

Hey guy,
I am not the one who starts these negative, meaningless diatribes. There are very few threads in which I have posted in recent years in which you have had anything positive or
meaningful in your responses to my posts. You are constantly "hi-jacking" an interesting (or meaningful) discussion to insert your "negativism".

To be honest with you, yes I the react to your horse-crap. But, seriously speaking, I feel sorry for you. You have a certain talent in doing research in this hobby that is good. But,
you negate all that with your constant meaningless attacks.

I try to avoid such attacks....but, when you accuse me of "stealing" my theory from some one else, I am not going to allow you to get away with such a dishonest accusation.

As they say, if you have nothing good to say about some one, then don't say it at all. This forum was not intended to operate like the toxic social media ones do.

Finally, I have never initiated a negative comment on you. So, why do you persist to attack me ? ?

TED Z
.

Once again you throw up a smoke screen to avoid answering a question that makes you look sneaky. Why would you edit several posts in a thread 10 years after it was last active I can't think of many reasons why someone would do this.

tedzan · #6 10-09-2021, 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pat R

Once again you throw up a smoke screen to avoid answering a question that makes you look sneaky. Why would you edit several posts in a thread 10 years after it was last active I can't think of many reasons why someone would do this.

To UPDATE information....or is that to complicated for your "obsessive mind" to comprehend !

Now, do you mind if the rest of us return to the main Topic on this thread ! ?

TED Z

T206 REFERENCE....convenient access to T206 checklists
.

Pat R · #7 10-09-2021, 10:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tedzan

To UPDATE information....or is that to complicated for your "obsessive mind" to comprehend !

Now, do you mind if the rest of us return to the main Topic on this thread ! ?

TED Z

T206 REFERENCE....convenient access to T206 checklists
.

No Ted it's not to complicated I know exactly what you changed and I knew you wouldn't admit it. You removed Ames from one list and added him to another and put corrected typo as a reason for editing it.

In your edited post there are 9 cards that you expect to be found with a BL460 back but in Johns unedited post he asks you about the 8 cards you listed and you forgot to change the exclusive 8 to 9 in your own post when you edited it 10 years later to add Ames to the list.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tedzan

I really appreciate all your complimentary words here. They have engendered a great feeling in me. Some folks try to dazzle
you with their PSA8 graded cards....I'd rather dazzle you with some high-level research into the mystery's of BB card issues.

John W
I am upping the ante on this REWARD to $20 for CONFIRMED info on the 28 cards that I claim are BL 460 "NO-PRINTS". I am
quite confident that these 28 cards wont be found with BL 460 backs (simply because my research suggests that they were
never printed).

Hey guys, I may be proven wrong on this......and, I welcome that. However, I do not expect to go broke paying out Andrew
Jackson greenbacks.

Please note....I still think that there is a good probability that any (or all) of the following cards will eventually be found with
BL 460 backs....and, my offer stands to pay anyone $20 for the verification of any of these....."Elusive Eight".

[B]1 Ames (hands over head)
2 Bender (no trees)
3 Chance (portrait-yellow)
4 Chase (portrait-blue)
5 Chase (dark cap)
6 Cobb (bat off shoulder)
7 Donlin (bat)
8 Doyle (bat)
9 Magee (bat)[/B]

Best regards to all of you,

TED Z

Quote:

Originally Posted by tedzan

Regarding your......

" I understand that you know which 26 different BL460s exist, and which 8 are likely to exist, but do you have any population
numbers (total graded and/or non-graded) on any of the known cards? "

I do not do POP reports, so I can't provide you any population #'s. Anyhow PSA #'s, for the most part, would be unrepresent-
ative. In 30 years of collecting T206's, I've seen at least one example of 20 of the 26 listed BL 460 cards.

In a about 5 cases, I have seen 2 examples. Perhaps, I might just start a survey here to see what kind of population exists
among the BL 460 cards.

TED Z

And speaking of obsessed you have called out t206resource on a number of occasions and even offered a $500 reward twice for an Ames AB460 they have on their list.

Funny thing is you said you owned one and had it on your AB460 list for years and went back and edited all of your lists that had him on it.

But you couldn't edit this one where you claim to own it in your complete AB460 subset because it's on the old board.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archive

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

There are 103 possible T206's that could have been printed with the American Beauty 460 back. But,
there are always those "nasty" No-Prints that keep you guessing. After 4 years of hunting for AB 460
cards, it appears that 33 Subjects are No-Prints. This of course is subject to revision, if additional AB
460's are found.

So, it's taken me 4 years to acquire 70 cards. It took me only 11 months to put together a 521 card
T206 Piedmont set. So, that gives you an idea how tough these AB 460 cards are.

Since the AB 460 back has a Factory 42 (North Carolina) identification, we can presume these cards
were issued at the very end of the T206 production run (circa 1911). So, I thought it would be cool
to collect this final T206 issue.

[linked image]

Listed here are the 70 cards in my set. The 350/460 Series is first and the 460-only Series follows.....

350/460 Series......30 cards

Ames (hands above head)
Baker
Berger
Bradley (bat)
Burch (fielding)
Cobb (bat off)
Conroy (bat)
Crawford (bat)
Elberfeld (Washington-fielding)
Jennings (one hand)
Jennings (two habds)
Jordan (bat)
Lajoie (bat)
Lake (no ball)
Leach (cap)
Leifield (bat)
Manning (pitching)
McQuillan (bat)
Mullin (bat)
Overall (yellow sky)
Pelty (vertical)
Pfeister (throwing)
Snodgrass (catching)
Steinfeldt (bat)
Tinker (bat off)
Wagner (bat on right)
Willetts
Willis (bat)
Wilhelm (bat)
Wiltse (throwing)

460-only Series......40 cards

Abbaticcio (blue sleeves)
Ball (Cleveland)
Bergen (catching)
Bridwell (cap)
Camnitz (arms at side)
Camnitz (arms up)
Chance (bat)
Chase (Trophy)
Crandall (cap)
Devore
Doyle (portrait)
Duffy
Ford
Frill
Gandil
Geyer
Howell (hands at waist)
Hummell
Lake (with ball)
Latham
Marquard (follow thru)
McGraw (glove at hip)
Meyers
Needham
Oldring (bat)
Overall (blue sky)
Payne
Pfeffer
Schaefer (Washington)
Schulte (back view)
Schlei (bat)
Seymour (portrait)
Sheckard (glove)
F. Smith (Chicago & Boston)
H. Smith (Brooklyn)
Stovall (bat)
Tannehill (Chicago)
Tinker (bat on)
Wheat
Wiltse (portrait w/cap)

I'd very much appreciate any additions to this sub-set....as I said, I am not 100% certain that these
70 cards complete this run. Actually, I would have expected more of them from the 460-only Series.

So, once more I'm asking you T206 collectors to check-out you sets and see if you have any AB 460
cards that are not on my list ?

Thanks,

TED Z

Quote:

Originally Posted by tedzan

T206Resource (and other sources on Net54) continue the myth that Ames (hands over head) is "confirmed" with an AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 (AB 460) back.
Furthermore, these sources also claim that this same Ames card has been confirmed with the UZIT back.

These are IMPOSSIBLE front/back combos !

I'm so certain that the above front/back combos do NOT exist, that I am willing to offer a $500 reward to anyone here who can show me a legitimate card
of Ames with an AB 460 or UZIT back.....thereby disproving my theory.

> > > > > >

. .

> > > > > > > > > >

A year ago I offered a $500 reward....check-out this thread > http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=240984. Obviously, no such Ames card(s) showed up.
One enduring quality of most National's is that you can find virtually every BB card ever issued. So, I figured I would give this experiment one more try.

The Ames (hands over head) is a 350/460 series subject. My research indicates American Lithographic printed the SWEET CAPORAL 350-460, Factory #42 backs and
the Red HINDU backs simultaneously......"matched pairs".

Ames has been confirmed with the SWEET CAPORAL 350-460 Factory #42 back. It has not yet been confirmed with the Red HINDU back. But, it's just a matter of time
that this Ames card with a Red HINDU back will be discovered.

. .

Furthermore, Ames card is not the only incorrect info in T206Resource....4 subjects in T206Resource's PIEDMONT 460 Factory 42 listing are identified as "confirmed".

These 4 cards, which T206Resource claims to be confirmed, have never been seen ** with PIEDMONT 460, Factory #42 backs......

Bergen (catching)
Chance (batting)
Murray (portrait)
Overall (blue sky)

For the most part, T206Resource is a dependable site to rely on.....but, they are absolutely mis-informing T206 collectors on these 6 cards noted in this thread.

You can contact me via email.... tedzan11@comcast.net. Or, look for me at the National. I'll be wandering about with $1000 burning a hole in my pocket.
So, if you have either one of these Ames cards to show me, and the card is authentic, then the $500 reward is yours....payable on the spot with cash.

** Note.... In the following post here these facts presented here will be reinforced.

TED Z

T206 Reference
.

You accuse me of attacking you but find it okay to attack t206resource for the same mistake that you made for years.

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