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#1
10-22-2021, 07:35 AM
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Can't afford the orange Wagner, then the blue Wagner will do
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 REFERENCE....Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
.        .... Sweet Caporal ...... Sovereign ......... Piedmont___The "House" that created these Tobacco cards___American Beauty ... COUPON ...…...... UZIT This thread will provide references to major contributions posted on Net54 these past 14 years that have formed a better understanding of "The Monster" [as Bill Heitman so aptly coined his T206 book (circa 1980)]. Let's start with the 2005-2006 publication of Scot Reader's Inside T206 An excellent, very informative, and well written book that inspired many of us Net54ers to post our experiences and theory's regarding the complexities of the T206 series. One of the early and very significant T206 threads was posted in June 2006 by Barry Arnold, titled T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection ? This thread sparked lots of brainstorming among Net54ers regarding T206's. It included surveys; and, various aspects of the T206 series were explored.....resulting in 363 meaningful posts. Furthermore, between many of us Net54ers, this thread was...."the beginning of a beautiful friendship" (to quote Humphrey Bogart in Casablanca). In the Summer of 2006, Bill Brown posted his T206 Super-Set (excel) spreadsheet. Bill received 1000's of inputs from Net54ers for this spreadsheet. It was a great start in the pursuit of what a T206 "master" set would be comprised of....T206 Super-Set Sept 2007, I started a thread titled Joe Doyle NAT'L and it's 11 "cousins"....SURVEY to explore certain PIEDMONT 350 cards that I considered as rare as the Joe Doyle "error" card. I eventually referred to these particular T206's as the Elite 11 Subsequent posts in this thread will expand on theory's regarding the structure of the T206 series and the front/back permutations that have resulted. A fair number of the theory's presented on Net54 (since 2006) have withstood the test of time. Providing accurate lists of which front/back combos were printed. And, which ones are No-Prints. So, stay tuned......many more T206 "oldies but goodies" References and Reflections will be posted here. And, feel free to contribute any meaningful T206 stories, or experiences collecting T206's that you have. __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___________________________________ INDEX Set your user settings to display 50 posts per Page. Then click on the topic of interest, then scan page for Post # noted. Post #1......Introduction....plus Scot Reader's " Inside T206 " book, and 3 significant T206 threads (circa..2006) for starters. Post #2......The beginning of the six "Super-Prints" Post #4......SOVEREIGN phantom "350/460" series (apple green cards) Post #5......350/460 series backs identified Post #8......350/460 series mutually-exclusive cards Post #22.....T206 Plank mystery Post #25.....T206 DRUM's...."A-B-C-D" connection Post #26.....A-B-C-D connection expanded Post #28.....1910 COUPON (T213-1) sub-set Post #30.....Ty Cobb / Ty Cobb back Post #31.....T206 Checklists....plus 1910 COUPON, T215-1 and Ty Cobb/Ty Cobb Posts #33 & 34.....Richard Russell's unique T206 collection Posts #35 - 36 & 38.....Exclusive 12 group (460-only series) Post #39.....AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 No Frame subjects = DRUM subjects Posts #44 & 48.....Collecting T206 sets....tell us your story's Post #54.....T206 all-PIEDMONT set Post #65......SOVEREIGN set story Post #69......SWEET CAPORAL, Factory #30 set story Posts #72 & 74......AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 adventure Posts #76 - 77......T206 cards RE-FRONTED (or re-backed)....FAKE's ! Post #93.....T206 "Proofs" Post #96.....UZIT checklist Post #97.....Spring of 1911....T206 era ends....the start of the "Golden era" begins Post #98.....ATC Factory's associated with the White-Bordered cards (1909 - 1911) Posts #101 & 106.....BROAD LEAF 460 checklist Post #107.....Hobby greats....Frank Nagy and Bill Heitman Post #108.....CAROLINA BRIGHTS checklist Post #124.....PIEDMONT 460, Factory #42 checklist Posts #128 - 131.....Why are Connie Mack, Jack Coombs, Shoeless Joe Jackson, Smoky Joe Wood missing in the T206 set ? Posts #134 & 138.....Timeline of the T206 POLAR BEAR cards Post #144.....T206 OLD MILL (Major League series) cards Post #146..... T206 OLD MILL Southern League cards Post #161.....Southern League cards (continued) Post #162.....T206 Southern Leaguers Brown OLD MILL cards Post #171.....The mysterious T206 brown LENOX cards Post #181.....SWEET CAPORAL 460, Factory #30 backs (w/o Factory #42 overprint) Post #190.....El Principe de Gales T206 cards Post #196.....SWEET CAPORAL 350-460, Factory #42 overprint cards Post #198.....Regional source of the Elite 11 cards Posts #201 >> 227.....Show-n-tell us of your favorite T206's Posts #231 >> 248.....Show-n-tell us of your T206 Run(s) Posts #263 >> 276.....T206 color printing errors......let's see some of these interesting T206's Posts #282 >> 294.....The mysterious nature of the Red HINDU cards Posts #302 >> 316.....Show-n-tell us of your MAGIE cards Posts #328 >> 333.....T206 150-only subjects...... Posts #334 >> 346.....T206 TRIVIA QUIZ....1st correct answer wins T206 Posts #353 >> 358.....PIEDMONT set structure & checklist Posts #360 >> 366.....T206 TRIVIA QUIZ....1st correct answer wins T206 Post #368.....Reminiscing about T206's in 2005 Post #378.....Remembering Jantz Morey Posts #379 >> 385.....T206 TRIVIA QUIZ....1st correct answer wins T206 Posts #386 >> 402.....T206 printed sheet structure Posts #405 >> 440.....Show us your BROAD LEAF 350 cards Posts #441 >> 450.....Comparable printing patterns of the T206's and T205's Posts #453 >> 467.....Guess the price of a near complete T206 set Posts #469 >> 470.....Guess the selling price of a COMPLETE SOVEREIGN set Posts #471 >> 474.....Guess selling price of a near complete PIEDMONT set Posts #476 >> 479.....Guess selling price of a complete SWEET CAP, F#30 set Posts #481 >> 515.....Show-n-Tell us of your T206 "finds" Posts #516 >> 536....."Bang the DRUM Slowly" while showing us your DRUM cards Posts #537 >> 551.....Guess how many Demmitt & O'Hara St Louis cards exist ? Posts #553 >> 554.....FYI: T206 rosters of the 16 Major League teams Posts #561 >> 570.....FYI: T206 rosters of the 16 Major League teams Posts #571 >> 572.....FYI: 350 Series Minor Leaguer's checklist and trivia Posts #573 >> 573.....T206 Southern League cards illustrated Posts #574 >> 579.....T206 "Monster" obsession ? ....Check-out this one ! Posts #580 >> 597.....Do the T215-1 cards belong in the T206 set ? Posts #598 >> 600.....Any guesses why no CHESTERFIELD or LUCKY STRIKE T-cards ? Posts #601 >> 603.....Any guesses why no CHESTERFIELD or LUCKY STRIKE T-cards ? Posts #605 >> 621.....the TOLSTOI story Posts #622 >> 623.....Meet me at Philly, we can Talk T206's Posts #624 >> 635.....CYCLE 460 checklist Posts #636 >> 650.....The "MONSTER" Master Set achievement Posts #651 >> 664.....The "MONSTER" Master Set achievement Posts #665 >> 669.....UPGRADING T206 cards Posts #671 >> 674.....And then, there are times to down-grade your T206's Posts #675 >> 692.....Black LENOX checklist Posts #693 >> 697.....Check-out Jamie B's multi-brand T206 card Posts #698 >> 700.....Revisting the mysterious Ty Cobb card with TY COBB back Posts #701 >> 713.....Reprising the Ty Cobb / TY COBB card debate Posts #714 >> 726.....CYCLE 350 checklist..... where have all the CYCLE 350 cards gone ? Posts #727 >> 741.....the enigmatic Lajoie (with bat)..... Post your inputs and/or cards Posts #742 >> 750.....The elusive ELITE 11....show them, if you have them Posts #751 >> 760.....The elusive ELITE 11....show them, if you have them Posts #761 >> 800.....How do you collect T206's: Graded or Ungraded ?...show us your cards Posts #801 >> 823.....How do you collect T206's: Graded or Ungraded ?...show us your cards Posts #824 >> 832.....Possible sources of the T206 Wagner cards Posts #833 >> 850.....T206 BLANK-BACKS...if you have them, post them here Posts #851 >> 853.....T206 BLANK-BACKS...if you have them, post them here Posts #854 >> 883.....What backs are your favorite(s), and do you collect runs of them ? Posts #884 >> 900.....Group of 36 subjects (350 Series) that are CB, EPDG, OM, PB NO-PRINTS Posts #901 >> 916.....Group of 36 subjects (350 Series) that are CB, EPDG, OM, PB NO-PRINTS Posts #917 >> 944.....MISSION (99%) ACCOMPLISHED American Beauty 460 run. Show your favorite run Posts #945 >> 950.....Red Ink "Twins" > HINDU and SWEET CAPORAL 350-460 Factory #42 cards Posts #951 >> 961.....Red Ink "Twins" > HINDU and SWEET CAPORAL 350-460 Factory #42 cards Posts #962 >> 984.....Possible sources of the T206 Wagner cards (Re-visited) Posts #985 >> 1000....... the "poor man's" T206 Joe Doyle "Nat'L" card Posts #1001 >> 1002..... the "poor man's" T206 Joe Doyle "Nat'L" card Posts #1004 >> 1034.....Reminiscing about your 1st BB card Show where you acquired T206's Posts #1035 >> 1050.....Show T206's with same name on top or different player's name on top Posts #1051 >> 1066.....Show T206's with same name on top or different player's name on top Posts #1068 >> 1070.....Imagine the T206 guys come alive, great read about the 1904 season Posts #1071 >> 1086....."pet peeves" regarding certain T206's...and tell us of your's ? Posts #1087 >> 1100.....Unique Antique CAR(ds).....Show us your "One of a Kind" T206(s) Posts #1101 >> 1150.....Unique Antique CAR(ds).....Show us your "One of a Kind" T206(s) Posts #1151 >> 1160.....Unique Antique CAR(ds).....Show us your "One of a Kind" T206(s) Posts #1161 >> 1193.....ATC's "signature" white-border T-card. Post your favorite Red Cobb Posts #1194 >> 1198.....Questionable action poses on certain T206's. Show us a questionable pose Posts #1199 >> 1200....."You can check out any time you like, but you can never leave" Posts #1201 >> 1207....."You can check out any time you like, but you can never leave" Posts #1208 >> 1213.....Revisiting the 150-only Series.....and, let's see your cards Posts #1214 >> 1225.....The "poor man's" T206 Joe Doyle "Nat'L" card survey (Updated) Posts #1226 >> 1237.....The "poor man's" T206 Joe Doyle "Nat'L" card and related subjects Posts #1238 >> 1250....."fat" AMERICAN BEAUTY cards....If you have any, let's see them Posts #1251 >> 1262....."fat" AMERICAN BEAUTY cards....If you have any, let's see them Posts #1263 >> 1281.....T206-like T209 (CONTENTNEA) 1st series....show us your T209 cards Posts #1283 >> 1294.....TRIVIA....Iffy call cost Team the Pennant. Who's the T206 player involved ? Posts #1295 >> 1300.....Interesting similarities between T206 Doyle Nat'L and T207 Hoff Posts #1301 >> 1302.....Interesting similarities between T206 Doyle Nat'L and T207 Hoff Post #1303....................INDEX Posts #1305 >> 1310.....Interesting similarities between T206 Doyle Nat'L and T207 Hoff Posts #1311 >> 1314.......... THREAD HI-JACKED ..... Posts #1316 >> 1318.......... THREAD HI-JACKED ..... Posts #1328 >> 1332.......... THREAD HI-JACKED ..... Posts #1335 >> 1341.......... THREAD HI-JACKED ..... Posts #1342 >> 1350.....Can't afford the orange Wagner, then the blue Wagner will do Posts #1351 >> 1373.....Can't afford the orange Wagner, then the blue Wagner will do Posts #1374 >> 1376.....Interesting association of AB350 (no-frame) T206's and AB460 T206's Posts #1377 >> 1398.....Fun run....PIEDMONT 350-460 Fact 25....Give it the old college try Posts #1399 >> 1400.....TRIVIA....Pitcher, Reliever, Infielder & good hitter. Name this T206 guy ? Posts #1401 >> 1409.....TRIVIA....Pitcher, Reliever, Infielder & good hitter. Name this T206 guy ? In this thread, I've tried to present some very complex aspects of the Series structure of the T206 set in a style which is understandable to most of the T206 collectors. However, if not clear, don't be shy about asking questions. Post your questions on this thread. Or, email me with your question.... tedzan11@comcast.net In either event, I will gladly do my best to provide you clear and meaningful answer(s). TED Z T206 REFERENCE....convenient access to T206 checklists . Last edited by tedzan; 07-28-2022 at 08:56 PM. 
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#2
10-22-2021, 07:40 AM
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Can't afford the orange Wagner, then the blue Wagner will do
Quote:
Does that Pirate Tinker complete your Tobacco card run of the Bat Off Shoulder image ? TED Z T206 REFERENCE....convenient access to T206 checklists .
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#3
10-22-2021, 01:49 PM
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Can't afford the orange Wagner, then the blue Wagner will do
Hey guys,
I really appreciate your responses (and displaying your cards)....regarding this "blue" Wagner topic. Here are a few more from my T206 collection. .       TED Z T206 REFERENCE....convenient access to T206 checklists . Last edited by tedzan; 10-23-2021 at 07:00 AM. Reason: Corrected typo.
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#4
10-23-2021, 08:31 PM
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Can't afford the orange Wagner, then the blue Wagner will do
I have a few more blue Wagner cards, but I cannot find them. Therefore, until I do, here are the
two Wagner's featured in the American Caramel set (E91) series C....which were issued in 1910. Show us your Wagner cards....T206 "orange" or "blue", or whatever Tobacco or Candy set they were printed in.   TED Z T206 REFERENCE....convenient access to T206 checklists . Last edited by tedzan; 10-23-2021 at 09:33 PM. Reason: Corrected typo.
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#5
10-23-2021, 09:18 PM
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Quote:
Sorry Just seeing this. My t215 pirate is Chance batting. I have a complete “t206” tinker bat off run, but I do need t214, t215-2 and t215 pirate (I think tinker bat off comes in those)
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#6
10-23-2021, 09:42 PM
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Can't afford the orange Wagner, then the blue Wagner will do
Quote:
Don't mind me, we just returned from a vacation in the town of Jim Thorpe in the Pocono Mountains of Pennsylvania. While we were up there, I checked-out what was happening on Net54 and I saw your post of your Pirate card on my cell phone. Looking at the small image on my phone, I mistook it for "Tinker". Either that or my mind reminded me of your great Tinker (bat off shoulder) run. Anyway, now that I am home, and looking at my Lap-Top screen, I clearly see that your Pirate card is Chance  I appreciate you correcting me. Take care my friend, TED Z T206 REFERENCE....convenient access to T206 checklists .
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#7
10-24-2021, 07:01 PM
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Can't afford the orange Wagner, then the blue Wagner will do
* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * *
      ...... Piedmont ...... Sweet Caporal ..... Polar Bear_____The "House" that created these Tobacco cards_____Sovereign ........... Hindu ........ American Beauty Following up from Post #1354 with American Caramel (E90-1) set....here are the two Wagner cards from my set. Aesthetically speaking (in my opinion), these two cards of Wagner are the all-time best images of him in any BB card issue. Especially, the throwing pose with the sunset in the distance. It is lithography at it's best.  . .   Although these images are also found on other E-card sets (and the T216 sets), I chose to display the E90-1 Wagner's, since their images are usually of a higher quality than on the other sets. TED Z T206 REFERENCE....convenient access to T206 checklists .
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#8
10-29-2021, 11:33 AM
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Hey Ted.
In another thread you posted a pic of 12 150-only cards, and seemed to imply that they must have been on the same sheet. Maybe I misread your implication, but I don't see how you can conclude that because there were 11 150-only cards that weren't extended into the 150/350 series, that they then must have been on the same sheet. Here is my reasoning: ATC puts together ~150 (156) cards for the first series....They are randomly organized into sheets (maybe 12 wide, maybe not....) for printing and then for back "assignment". Turns out that out of those ~150, a few errors, mistakes and problems arise...guys die, guys leave the big leagues, Plank/wagner, Magie/Magee, etc. When they laid out the original sheets in april 1909, they would have had no idea which random images would need to later be excised.... So my contention, is that when they decided to expand to 350 cards...they just took the first ~12 or so from the proposed new sheets and inserted them into the existing sheets as replacements for the non-extended subjects. maybe they had 9 to replace, but since they had sheets of 12, they replaced 12 people from the 150series sheet layouts. respectfully, jim.
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#9
10-29-2021, 12:01 PM
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Can't afford the orange Wagner, then the blue Wagner will do
Hi Jim
I'm not quite sure of the point you are making. Let me think about it before I respond. I'm away right now, and I'll try to give you an answer later today. I'm guessing that you re referring to this illustration of mine ? 150-only Series American Lithographic introduced the T206 set during the Spring of 1909 by printing these 12 cards then shipped them to T-Factory's____     TED Z T206 REFERENCE....convenient access to T206 checklists .
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#10
10-30-2021, 08:30 AM
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Can't afford the orange Wagner, then the blue Wagner will do.
Quote:
Hi Jim.....excuse my delay in responding, as we had a 5-hour power failure last night. American Litho (ALC) started planning the T206 designs for the 150 Series in 1908-09. But started their presses rolling with just these 12 subjects (in post #1359) in Spring of 1909. Throughout the remainder of 1909, ALC cranked out 144 more 150 Series subjects. These little Tobacco cards became so popular, that ALC extended many of them into 1910, when they started printing the 350 Series cards. ALC continued printing many of this group of 144 cards, but with PIEDMONT 350, SOVEREIGN 350, SWEET CAP 350, etc. on their backs. I'm not sure that I have answered your question. If not, I'll try again. TED Z T206 REFERENCE....convenient access to T206 checklists . Last edited by Leon; 08-24-2022 at 09:06 AM.
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#11
11-08-2021, 07:08 PM
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Can't afford the orange Wagner, then the blue Wagner will do
Quote:
Hi Sonny Yes indeed, your blue Wagner is "pretty cool".....actually, it may be unique. Have you seen another PROOF card of this Wagner ? My favorite blue Wagner resides in my AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 sub-set, which has been a work in progress for approx. 16 years. I currently have 73 of the 74 subjects that were printed with the AB 460 back.  .  TED Z T206 REFERENCE....convenient access to T206 checklists .
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#12
11-09-2021, 03:42 PM
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Hey Ted ! I haven’t seen another Heinie Wagner proof, but you just never know what’s out there. I sure hope you can locate your last AB460...that would be an epic accomplishment. I’m working on a brown hindu subset, and I oftentimes wonder which one will be the last I need. The brown Hindus aren’t as tough as most of those AB460s though!!!
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#13
11-09-2021, 08:04 PM
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Can't afford the orange Wagner, then the blue Wagner will do
Quote:
Hi Sonny Good luck collecting brown HINDU cards. It's anyone's guess as you approach completing this 136-card sub-set which T206 will be one of your last cards. Speaking about "last cards", I need Camnitz (hands over head) to complete my AB 460 sub-set. As far as I know, only one exists, and the guy who has it will not part with it. I can't say that I blame him. I became interested in the AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 cards when I broke up my 2nd T206 set (521-cards) in 2005. It started with this Zach Wheat card......  .  And, of course, my pride and joy in this sub-set is Mr. Cobb......  ------------------ TED Z T206 REFERENCE....convenient access to T206 checklists .
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#14
11-22-2021, 07:08 PM
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T206 REFERENCE...Interesting association of AB350 (no-frame) T206's and AB460 T206's
* * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * *
   Quote:
Speaking about AMERICAN BEAUTY cards, there is an interesting process of how American Lithographic (ALC) first printed the AB 350 (No FRAME) cards and later in the print runs the AB 460 cards. Circa Summer 1910, ALC printed 190 subjects with AB 350 backs with the stylized FRAME for their 350-only Series. Followed by 37 of these subjects printed with AB 350, but without the stylized FRAME. Circa Fall--Winter 1910, ALC extended 63 subjects from the 350-only Series into what we refer to as the 350/460 Series. Subsequently, ALC separated these 63 cards into two Groups. I refer to them as Group A (35 cards), and Group B (28 cards). Post #8 in this Thread amplifies on the Mutually-Exclusive cards in the 350/460 Series. Group A cards were printed circa late 1910. Group B cards were printed early 1911 (by Spring of 1911, ALC ended all the T206 production). Therefore, from the 37 - AB350 NO FRAME cards, 19 subjects from Group B (see checklist below) were printed with both the AB 350 and AB 460 backs. Furthermore, these 9 subjects from Group B were printed ONLY with AB 460 backs...... Berger Bradley with (bat) Cobb (bat off shoulder) Jennings (one hand) Lajoie (with bat) Leach (bending over) F. Smith (Chicago & Boston) Tinker (bat off shoulder) Doc White (pitching) Checklist......Group B (19 subjects) printed with both AB 350 (NO FRAME) and AB 460 Burch (fielding) Conroy (with bat) Crawford (with bat) Jennings (two hands) Jordan (batting) Lake (St Louis-no ball) Leifield (batting) Manning (pitching) McQuillan (with bat) Mullin (with bat) Overall (hand face level) Pelty (vertical) Pfeister (throwing) Steinfeldt (with bat) Wagner (bat on right shoulder) Wilhelm (with bat) Willetts Willis (with bat) Wiltse (pitching)  > > > > > >  Checklist of Group A subjects that were printed with AB 350 (NO FRAME), and were subsequently printed with BROAD LEAF 460 and Red HINDU will be next. TED Z T206 REFERENCE....convenient access to T206 checklists . Last edited by tedzan; 11-26-2021 at 07:05 AM. Reason: Added scans.
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#15
11-23-2021, 07:01 PM
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Interesting association of AB350 (no-frame) T206's and AB460 T206's
Continuing with the AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 (NO FRAME) story......
Checklist of 350/460 Series Group A subjects that were printed with AB 350 (NO FRAME). These were subsequently printed with BROAD LEAF 460 and Red HINDU, instead of AB 460....... 18 Subjects Baker Bender (no trees) Doolan (bat) Downey (batting) Doyle (bat) Elberfeld (Washington-fielding) Griffith (bat) Johnson (pitching) Konetchy (glove low) Magee (bat) Murphy (bat) Nichols (bat) Reulbach (no glove) Rucker (throwing) Seymour (throwing) Stahl (glove) Street (catching) Sweeney (New York) > > > > > >  > > > > TED Z T206 REFERENCE....convenient access to T206 checklists .
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#16
11-26-2021, 08:01 PM
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Responding to questions regarding Group A versus Group B in the 350/460 Series
With respect to the 460-type backs (BROAD LEAF 460 and Red HINDU), the cards of Group A are Mutually-Exclusive with the cards of Group B (AB 460 and UZIT).
I discovered this while doing research on the AB 460 cards and BROAD LEAF 460 cards back in 2010. Refer to.... 350/460 mutually-exclusive cards....post #14. Illustrated here are the 63 subjects of the 350/460 series which American Lithographic separated into 2 print groups at the tail-end of their T206 press runs. Group A of the 350/460 series includes 35 subjects printed and issued with these four 460-type backs (circa..late 1910 > early 1911).  .  . Factory #25 VA ......................... Factory#42 N.C. Conversely, these 35 subjects were NOT PRINTED with.... AMERICAN BEAUTY 460....UZIT Group A .   ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Group B   Group B of the 350/460 series includes 28 subjects printed and issued with these two 460-type backs (circa..Feb-Mar 1911). .  Conversely, these 28 subjects were NOT PRINTED with.. SWEET CAPORAL 460 Factory 25.. SWEET CAPORAL 460 Factory 42.. red HINDU.. BROAD LEAF 460 TED Z T206 REFERENCE....convenient access to T206 checklists . Last edited by tedzan; 12-02-2021 at 10:07 AM. Reason: Added scans.
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