T220 Silver - Uncut Edition

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by G1911

I'm not sure how the press sizes a decade prior will relate to the sheets, and produces quite a range of possibilities there.

Is there a source or evidence for Schmidt printing T212? the post here says they "used similar presses", and Obak is mentioned only once in passing without relation to Schmidt using my fancy command F. I presume the printer of T212 was the printer of T224/T229 based on the stylistic resemblances.


I can add T29 to the list of probably block-subject printed sets from miscuts. T25 is not in block format, T29, T218-3 are, most don't have cards cut so bad we can tell, or uncut material. 25 subjects on a sheet makes a lot of sense. If it was this way, I've seen no evidence of double printing to compensate for the Donovan and Corbett getting yanked from their sheet(s) very, very early on.


On a related printing note, does anyone know what happened to the second ledger that surfaced? Lelands sold it for $8k a couple years ago, it had information on T220 among other sets, but only a small sampling was shown in the listing (https://auction.lelands.com/bids/bidplace?itemid=976570). There may be some clues in here if its owner is willing to divulge. Much of the evidence that would help piece things together appears to be silo'd; there seems much more out there and extant than is talked about openly.

Your link doesn't work maybe this one will

https://auction.lelands.com/bids/bidplace?itemid=97657


This book indicates that the Old Masters Litho Corporation printed some of the T220's and T225's.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Pat R

Your link doesn't work maybe this one will

https://auction.lelands.com/bids/bidplace?itemid=97657


This book indicates that the Old Masters Litho Corporation printed some of the T220's and T225's.

Thank you for correcting the link. Yes, I have the description of the auction and it's handful of images. Covers N's, T's, and possibly beyond the 1912 general end date. Gives exact dates for T225 printing, has an ad for T223 in it as well, but many of the pages aren't shown. It also seems to indicate Brett Lithography Co. printed cards as well. I presume these are both subsidiaries of American Lithography that bought out most of the NY area lithographers, but information online appears scant. I'm hoping it will turn up again in the hobby with an owner willing to share its information, as there is surely much more than in the listing.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by G1911

Thank you for correcting the link. Yes, I have the description of the auction and it's handful of images. Covers N's, T's, and possibly beyond the 1912 general end date. Gives exact dates for T225 printing, has an ad for T223 in it as well, but many of the pages aren't shown. It also seems to indicate Brett Lithography Co. printed cards as well. I presume these are both subsidiaries of American Lithography that bought out most of the NY area lithographers, but information online appears scant. I'm hoping it will turn up again in the hobby with an owner willing to share its information, as there is surely much more than in the listing.

Brett Litho?? That's what the stamp on your sheet says!

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Brett Litho?? That's what the stamp on your sheet says!

Nice catch Adam it states in the scrapbook that the Brett plant burned around
March 30 1910 maybe Fullgraff was doing some printing for them?

I found an interesting newspaper article on Brett Lithograph I will clip and post it.

[Pat R]

April 1902 newspaper article on Brett Lithograph Company
Sorry about the different sizes but I had to clip it in several parts

Brett Co. part 1.jpg
Brett Co. part 2.jpg
Brett Co. part 3.jpg
Brett Co. Part 4.jpg
Brett Co. part 5.jpg

Some more info on Alphonse Brett

https://digital.librarycompany.org/i...gitool%3A78923

[G1911]

It's a good thing you smart gents are here, because I was looking for a "Brett Little" as an employee of ALC or ATC like a dumbass, though it seems obvious now...

Until a year ago, my suspicion had been that American Lithographic did pretty much all the 1909-1912 American Tobacco cards, which I think was the normal opinion. I thought they had a more active role than is generally imagined, as it seems they were the ones securing athletes rights (inferred from the Ball letter), and not ATC, seeming like more than the role of a printer contracted to do a job. The ATC ledger doesn't have anything on indentifying the printer unless my memory is awry. This ledger from Lelands last year would suggest whoever Old Masters is and Brett Lithographic worked in partnership to produce some of the sets, at least.

The "prize fighters" referenced printed at Brett until they "burnt out" and then started at Old Masters must be T225-1, not T220 (the dates are before T220-1 or T220-2 is possible, because Gans date of death appears in the cards. Thus they can't have been done before mid-August, 1910 at the earliest). I thought t225 (and T28, T96) were not done by ATC/AL, and the Oxford/Surbrug/Khedieval brands weren't part of the ATC umbrella. Am I wrong there?

So there's multiple printers working in partnership (the 'burnt out' pass-off reference would seem to tell us this) to print ATC sets, even within the same set. My first thought is that this is because American Lithography dominated the New York printing business at this time. I have not succeeded in finding reference to Old Masters or Brett Litho as subsidiaries though; Pat's linked article even includes the transaction history of Brett without reference to them ever being an American Lithography subsidiary. This wasn't entirely uncommon then though; with the Monopoly laws being fairly fresh and enforced there were plenty of somewhat secret subsidiaries in a host of areas. If Old Masters and Brett Litho were not subsidiaries, they could be sub-contractors OR the entire picture is much more complicated and Lithograph companies were competing for orders and business from American Tobacco, and the long-standing view of the ATC/AL partnership is just wrong.

[G1911]

Starting with the E229's, as there are only 6 panels and it's easier. Actually, I should probably not call them E229. This could be the bread version (D353, I think), I believe there's no way to tell which series a card goes too if there is a blank back like these have. I'd love to know if there is, if we have a collector more knowledgeable of them, I don't know this set very well. Panel numbers are following the random order I put them in in post 11.

Panel 2 (Gilbert/Gilbert) is apparently the bottom left corner.

I believe Panel 3 (Gilbert/Flanagan) goes above it, the cut is a close match and the alignment mark seems to have it's bottom present on panel 2. 95% sure.

Fitting next to panel 3's right is panel 5 (Gilbert/Flanagan again). The edge is not as neatly cut as many of them are and it fits together perfectly, positive this connects.

The other 3 panels do not connect to any of this grouping. Panel 1 (Eller/Erickson) may fit right above panel 4 (Erickson/Irons), but the top and bottom edges are pretty cleanly cut and without all the panels here it's hard to be sure this one is 100% correct.

Panel 6 (Flanagan/Eller) does not fit with any of the other panels.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by G1911

It's a good thing you smart gents are here, because I was looking for a "Brett Little" as an employee of ALC or ATC like a dumbass, though it seems obvious now...

Until a year ago, my suspicion had been that American Lithographic did pretty much all the 1909-1912 American Tobacco cards, which I think was the normal opinion. I thought they had a more active role than is generally imagined, as it seems they were the ones securing athletes rights (inferred from the Ball letter), and not ATC, seeming like more than the role of a printer contracted to do a job. The ATC ledger doesn't have anything on indentifying the printer unless my memory is awry. This ledger from Lelands last year would suggest whoever Old Masters is and Brett Lithographic worked in partnership to produce some of the sets, at least.

The "prize fighters" referenced printed at Brett until they "burnt out" and then started at Old Masters must be T225-1, not T220 (the dates are before T220-1 or T220-2 is possible, because Gans date of death appears in the cards. Thus they can't have been done before mid-August, 1910 at the earliest). I thought t225 (and T28, T96) were not done by ATC/AL, and the Oxford/Surbrug/Khedieval brands weren't part of the ATC umbrella. Am I wrong there?

So there's multiple printers working in partnership (the 'burnt out' pass-off reference would seem to tell us this) to print ATC sets, even within the same set. My first thought is that this is because American Lithography dominated the New York printing business at this time. I have not succeeded in finding reference to Old Masters or Brett Litho as subsidiaries though; Pat's linked article even includes the transaction history of Brett without reference to them ever being an American Lithography subsidiary. This wasn't entirely uncommon then though; with the Monopoly laws being fairly fresh and enforced there were plenty of somewhat secret subsidiaries in a host of areas. If Old Masters and Brett Litho were not subsidiaries, they could be sub-contractors OR the entire picture is much more complicated and Lithograph companies were competing for orders and business from American Tobacco, and the long-standing view of the ATC/AL partnership is just wrong.

This is along the lines of what I have suggested as a possibility for a few years now about the t206's. It would be the answer to many question about the T206's if there were several facility's and/or firms involved in printing the t206's over the 2+ years they were distributed.