PWCC Auctions - Mystery Bid Post Auction?

hcv123 · #1 10-31-2021, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowman

If a card has been altered but that alteration cannot be detected, then what difference does it make? The TPGs are just trying to render an opinion and the hobby has chosen to value those opinions. They're just people like you and me though at the end of the day. They're not infallible. It doesn't make them criminals just because people can "sneak one past the goalie", or even if they can "sneak one past the goalie" with regularity. They're just offering opinions.

I at least in part agree with much of what you shared Travis. Similarly in comic books - cleaning and pressing has become "accepted" in the marketplace. Where I choose to differ is this - the "3rd party opinion peddlers" claim to consistently be able to identify and reject "altered" cards - even having different designations for the alterations they detect (as an aside in response to a separate post - I 1000% think it is RIDICULOUS that they mark cards that sat in screw downs too long as "altered") when the truth is they clearly cannot. Leaving those who "slipped one past" benefitting and those who did not or are buyers of the one that did being hurt - an unfair playing field for those depending on their opinions. If they could catch even 98% of them or stop claiming they can and stop trying or even being honest and admit - some slip by, then I would agree with your statement in its entirety. My problem is they claim to do something they cannot, it, therefore, gets applied unequally and benefits some while hurting others.

swarmee · #2 10-31-2021, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hcv123

I 1000% think it is RIDICULOUS that they mark cards that sat in screw downs too long as "altered"

Will disagree with this one. If a card has been pressed to a thinner card by people screwing it into a holder, it is altered/pressed. Just because that person thought they were protecting their card doesn't matter. The card is damaged, and should be treated as such. Not identifying pressed cards as altered also would obscure those cards with wrinkles or creases that are then pressed out.

mrreality68 · #3 10-31-2021, 05:53 PM

Remember they have motivation to have you leave your money in your account with them.
The Loans they give other people ( and charge interest on)
And
Similar to a bank they float money. So the money you keep in your account helps keep them more liquid and use those funds to help fund the loans.
This way they minimize their funds required and meet all their customers needs

BobC · #4 10-31-2021, 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrreality68

Remember they have motivation to have you leave your money in your account with them.
The Loans they give other people ( and charge interest on)
And
Similar to a bank they float money. So the money you keep in your account helps keep them more liquid and use those funds to help fund the loans.
This way they minimize their funds required and meet all their customers needs

Jeff,

I don't think that is really true because first off, they're not a bank. Banks have unbelievably strict federal and state rules and requirements they must adhere to and abide by to do what they do. And I doubt they have anything like that in place without it being public knowledge.

Plus, by doing what you're saying it would put them at extreme risk if they suddenly had a lot of customers want their money back. Banks, at least federally licensed ones, can normally get short term loans from the Federal Reserve Bank to cover such cash needs/shortfalls. That option isn't available to them. Now they do have the possibility of obtaining loans through a credit line or other credit facility they may have with their own bank, but that is probably going to require such loans to be collateralized. And trust me. no U.S. bank is ever going to consider funds they're holding for their customers/consigners that they themselves don't own or have any legal right to as acceptable collateral for making a loan to them.

I think the holding of funds is more along the same idea they take advantage of with the vault. Someone holding something in their vault will likely just consign it back to them to sell should they ever decide to sell it. It is easier and convenient for the seller/consigner as they don't really have to do anything. And the same kind of goes for them just holding the cash for someone they just sold something for. Now if that same seller/consigner who's money PWCC is holding sees something that PWCC is selling for someone else and buys it, they can just tell PWCC to pay for their purchase with the funds they'd been holding for them. Can have various reasons people would choose to do this. The simple ease of doing it (laziness), the fact that someone likes the idea of keeping all their card collectiing activity and financing of it separate from their other finances and activities (similar to how many people keep separate investment/retirement accounts), or how about so the spouse doesn't know about it, and so on. In any event, I think they may do this to try and keep people spending their money in their auctions/sales. PWCC gets their main income from sales commissions, and the vault and holding people's funds for them can help to keep consignments and customers flowing to their site and sales, and away from Ebay and other AHs/online sellers. No factual hard evedence, but I think it does make the most logical sense as to why they may be doing it.

Snowman · #5 10-31-2021, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by swarmee

Will disagree with this one. If a card has been pressed to a thinner card by people screwing it into a holder, it is altered/pressed. Just because that person thought they were protecting their card doesn't matter. The card is damaged, and should be treated as such. Not identifying pressed cards as altered also would obscure those cards with wrinkles or creases that are then pressed out.

I agree with the highlighted text. The card has sustained damage and should be treated as such. But that's not the same thing as being altered. Why not treat it like they do with creases? A creased card can't get higher than a 4 (or a 1.5 it seems nowadays). Just give it a fair grade that reflects the damage. Why is that so difficult to do? Got a NM looking 52 Mantle with squished corners? Give it a 5 instead of an 8 or whatever. But to put it in a "Altered" slab and give it a scalet letter with no explanation to accompany that decision? That's bullshit IMO.

glynparson · #6 10-31-2021, 07:07 PM

People
Were
Using the screw downs often in conjunction with c clamps to smash and fix corners So that was in effect alterations there is no way for them to tell
When it was used to smash bumped corners and square up and when was just left too long in an over tightened screwdown. There is a legit reason for what they are doing,o but it�s always easier to just call them names.

Peter_Spaeth · #7 10-31-2021, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glynparson

People
Were
Using the screw downs often in conjunction with c clamps to smash and fix corners So that was in effect alterations there is no way for them to tell
When it was used to smash bumped corners and square up and when was just left too long in an over tightened screwdown. There is a legit reason for what they are doing,o but it�s always easier to just call them names.

Right. If you can't tell if it's been altered in an attempt to deceive versus damaged as a result of storage, I think you should err on the side of calling it altered.

BobC · #8 10-31-2021, 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glynparson

People
Were
Using the screw downs often in conjunction with c clamps to smash and fix corners So that was in effect alterations there is no way for them to tell
When it was used to smash bumped corners and square up and when was just left too long in an over tightened screwdown. There is a legit reason for what they are doing,o but it�s always easier to just call them names.

Wasn't there also the notion that by clamping a card down in a screw down holder that along with making it thinner, it would also make it taller and wider because of the flattening? And this would allow someone to slightly trim the edges, yet still have the card meet the proper size dimensions. If that is true, it can add a slightly different twist to the argument of altered versus damaged in this case.

bnorth · #9 10-31-2021, 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobC

Wasn't there also the notion that by clamping a card down in a screw down holder that along with making it thinner, it would also make it taller and wider because of the flattening? And this would allow someone to slightly trim the edges, yet still have the card meet the proper size dimensions. If that is true, it can add a slightly different twist to the argument of altered versus damaged in this case.

It is 100% true. I needed a Ted Williams to complete a set. A fellow member and long time friend sent me a PSA 7 or 8 can't remember to finish the set. My set is ungraded so I cracked it out. In the slab it looked good. Once I cracked it out it was beyond obvious it had been seriously pressed and trimmed. The card was way thinner and kinda hard/stiff from being compressed.

Peter_Spaeth · #10 10-31-2021, 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bnorth

It is 100% true. I needed a Ted Williams to complete a set. A fellow member and long time friend sent me a PSA 7 or 8 can't remember to finish the set. My set is ungraded so I cracked it out. In the slab it looked good. Once I cracked it out it was beyond obvious it had been seriously pressed and trimmed. The card was way thinner and kinda hard/stiff from being compressed.

Soak stretch and trim.

hcv123 · #11 10-31-2021, 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bnorth

It is 100% true. I needed a Ted Williams to complete a set. A fellow member and long time friend sent me a PSA 7 or 8 can't remember to finish the set. My set is ungraded so I cracked it out. In the slab it looked good. Once I cracked it out it was beyond obvious it had been seriously pressed and trimmed. The card was way thinner and kinda hard/stiff from being compressed.

I guess that was one of the few they missed. (Read with sarcasm).
To me there is an obvious simple solution - they have all these different "altered" designations - just add it to the "altered" slab so everyone can see the alteration they are claiming - just the way they do numeric grades. Altered - trimmed, altered - colored, altered - sat in a screw down too long, etc.

Snowman · #12 10-31-2021, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hcv123

I at least in part agree with much of what you shared Travis. Similarly in comic books - cleaning and pressing has become "accepted" in the marketplace. Where I choose to differ is this - the "3rd party opinion peddlers" claim to consistently be able to identify and reject "altered" cards - even having different designations for the alterations they detect (as an aside in response to a separate post - I 1000% think it is RIDICULOUS that they mark cards that sat in screw downs too long as "altered") when the truth is they clearly cannot. Leaving those who "slipped one past" benefitting and those who did not or are buyers of the one that did being hurt - an unfair playing field for those depending on their opinions. If they could catch even 98% of them or stop claiming they can and stop trying or even being honest and admit - some slip by, then I would agree with your statement in its entirety. My problem is they claim to do something they cannot, it, therefore, gets applied unequally and benefits some while hurting others.

Absolutely! I completely agree with you there. The screw-down damage equating to an "alteration" is a joke. How is a corner getting squished any different from an indentation elsewhere on a card's surface? And they don't even differentiate on the flip between a screw-down damaged card and a trimmed card.

I also agree that the TPGs falsely advertise their abilities. I think it's mostly born out of hubris. I think years ago, they honestly believed they'd be able to catch this stuff. After all, it's not that difficult to identify a trimmed edge when someone cuts it with an Exacto knife or a pair of scissors, or even a guillotine-style office paper cutter. The BODA threads were probably a HUGE eye-opener for them with respect to the scope of this problem (or at least it should have been). If someone has the right equipment (and clearly there is no shortage of people who do) then those trimmed cards simply cannot be distinguished from a factory edge. The fact that cards are cut with blades at the manufacturers should have made this obvious, but they thought they all had eagle eyes. It's just like all the lemmings in the Blowhard threads who all think they could easily detect any trimmed card, then they all proceed to disagree about which edges were trimmed on the cards that get posted lol. Then they all say, "just measure it" as if that's actually sufficient for determining if a card has been trimmed. The reality is, it's just not that easy to detect a ~~"properly?"~~ ~~"well?"~~ deceitfully trimmed card, unfortunately. There's too much variance in card sizes from the manufacturer for a ruler to matter most of the time. Sure, if you trim a card 1/8" short, then it's easy to detect. But I'd wager good money that they catch the overwhelming majority of cards that actually measure 1/8" short percentage-wise. But these guys are literally shaving off 1/64th of an inch sometimes. That's insane. I bet some of these oversized cards could be micro-trimmed 3 or 4 times and would still measure to specs.

I don't think it's just an issue of insufficient time being spent on each card either. Sure, given more time, they'll be able to detect more trimmed cards, but you're probably talking about moving the needle from being able to detect 22% of trimmed cards to 26% of trimmed cards or something negligible like that if they had more time on each card.

They could just come clean and be honest about their limitations. Just admit that it's not possible to detect a high percentage of these and that they'll just do the best they can. The problem with that approach though is that it opens up the door to more of this behavior and fast tracks it to being more widely accepted. I think they want to see if they can still detect it. That's partly what they were hoping for when they acquired Genamint. But it's a fool's errand. The reason these cuts cannot be detected is because there simply isn't a difference there to detect. It's like cutting a piece of paper in two places with the same pair of scissors and then handing it to someone else and asking them to tell you which cut was made first by examining the cuts with a ruler and a jeweler's loupe.

It would be interesting to run an experiment where we sent in large quantities of different cards, each with various alterations to each of the TPGs to see what they were able to detect and then analyze the results. I wouldn't even be surprised if the majority of alterations actually get through at every single TPG. It'd be interesting to run an experiment with the forum members too. Especially over at Blowhard where seemingly everyone thinks they could easilty catch this stuff. You could post a 20 card test, half of which have been expertly trimmed and the other half not. Ask them to identify which cards have been trimmed and on which edges, but don't tell them how many are untrimmed, just post all 20 cards blind. They'll say every single card was trimmed and the edges they identify would probably be nearly chosen at random.

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