Best lefty off all time? My vote is Koufax!

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

I would point out that Kershaw is the live ball era career leader in both WHIP and ERA in an era of high scoring.

I think there is a fine, good-faith argument for Kershaw. I think he falls well short, because the greatest of all time is a combination of 1) how good he was and 2) how long he was good. Kershaw has not had a long career at this point in time, even by the standards of pitchers today he's missed a lot of time. On the other hand, he has aged well as his velocity declines and while he isn't the dominator he was, he may have several good seasons left. He could end up #1 when all is said and done. Active players are very difficult to rank because at age 33, to make Kershaw #1 we have to assume the future, which I don't think is reasonable.

If we'd like to count him, Kershaw is #1 and Reb Russell is #2.

I'd rather have grove for 4,000 innings than Kershaw for 2,500 Innings. Kershaw's best is on par or possibly even better than Grove's best, but not by the margin to cover this huge gap in my eyes.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by G1911

I think there is a fine, good-faith argument for Kershaw. I think he falls well short, because the greatest of all time is a combination of 1) how good he was and 2) how long he was good. Kershaw has not had a long career at this point in time, even by the standards of pitchers today he's missed a lot of time.

To be fair, Kershaw had already had more great seasons than Koufax did by five years ago.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Tabe

To be fair, Kershaw had already had more great seasons than Koufax did by five years ago.

I think he falls short of being the greatest ever, at this point in time. I don't think that Koufax is what is keeping him back from that title at all.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by G1911

I think he falls short of being the greatest ever, at this point in time. I don't think that Koufax is what is keeping him back from that title at all.

I agree on both counts.

[cammb]

Originally Posted by Tabe

To be fair, Kershaw had already had more great seasons than Koufax did by five years ago.

I would say Kershaw is indeed a great pitcher, but he is no Koufax.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by cammb

I would say Kershaw is indeed a great pitcher, but he is no Koufax.

Look at his three Cy Young seasons where his numbers are just phenomenal, as well as his next two best seasons, and I'd be curious why you think they don't measure up to Koufax. PS If the issue with Kershaw is post season, yeah I agree with that.

[cammb]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Look at his three Cy Young seasons where his numbers are just phenomenal, as well as his next two best seasons, and I'd be curious why you think they don't measure up to Koufax. PS If the issue with Kershaw is post season, yeah I agree with that.

I am from the old school where innings pitched, strikeouts, complete games and shutouts mean something. Yeah, he is no akoufax

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by cammb

I am from the old school where innings pitched, strikeouts, complete games and shutouts mean something. Yeah, he is no akoufax

Look at Kershaw's K/9 it's quite high. Higher than Koufax actually. As for the other stats, it's hardly Kershaw's fault that he pitches in an era that thinks differently about starting pitchers and days between starts and pitch counts.

[G1911]

Kershaw has pitched more innings (2,454) in his career than Koufax (2,324) did.

Kershaw (2,670) has more strikeouts than Koufax (2,396) did.

Kershaw has a better K/9 than Koufax, 9.8 to 9.3.

Koufax had 40 Shutouts, Kershaw has 15. Kershaw is the active leader, as complete games are dead (unfortunately, personally).

This old-school argument (which I don't think is generally invalid or necessarily bad, innings matter a lot I think, CG's not so much) doesn't seem to support Koufax over Kershaw.

[cammb]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Look at his three Cy Young seasons where his numbers are just phenomenal, as well as his next two best seasons, and I'd be curious why you think they don't measure up to Koufax. PS If the issue with Kershaw is post season, yeah I agree with that.

It is not if Kershaw measures up to Koufax or not. I have seen Koufax pitch plenty of times as well as Kershaw. Koufax made me grin every time he struck some one out. That curve ball was sick. I am not a dodger fan but loved a great pitcher when I saw him and ,TO ME, he will always be the best. I can say the same for Mickey Mantle. I hated the yankees but loved to see Mantle at bat.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by cammb

It is not if Kershaw measures up to Koufax or not. I have seen Koufax pitch plenty of times as well as Kershaw. Koufax made me grin every time he struck some one out. That curve ball was sick. I am not a dodger fan but loved a great pitcher when I saw him and ,TO ME, he will always be the best. I can say the same for Mickey Mantle. I hated the yankees but loved to see Mantle at bat.

This is “my personal favorite” not “the best of all time”.

[cammb]

Originally Posted by G1911

This is “my personal favorite” not “the best of all time”.

This is "my personal favorite AND "the best of all time!"

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by cammb

It is not if Kershaw measures up to Koufax or not. I have seen Koufax pitch plenty of times as well as Kershaw. Koufax made me grin every time he struck some one out. That curve ball was sick. I am not a dodger fan but loved a great pitcher when I saw him and ,TO ME, he will always be the best. I can say the same for Mickey Mantle. I hated the yankees but loved to see Mantle at bat.

I think it was in Jane Leavy's book, Mantle is quoted as saying to Roseboro the first time he sees Koufax's big curve, how in the *&^*( am I supposed to hit that?

[cammb]

Originally Posted by peter_spaeth

i think it was in jane leavy's book, mantle is quoted as saying to roseboro the first time he sees koufax's big curve, how in the *&^*( am i supposed to hit that?

b i n g o !!!!!

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I think it was in Jane Leavy's book, Mantle is quoted as saying to Roseboro the first time he sees Koufax's big curve, how in the *&^*( am I supposed to hit that?

Play against Sandy anywhere other than Dodger Stadium