Best lefty off all time? My vote is Koufax!

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by G1911

I think there is a fine, good-faith argument for Kershaw. I think he falls well short, because the greatest of all time is a combination of 1) how good he was and 2) how long he was good. Kershaw has not had a long career at this point in time, even by the standards of pitchers today he's missed a lot of time.

To be fair, Kershaw had already had more great seasons than Koufax did by five years ago.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Tabe

To be fair, Kershaw had already had more great seasons than Koufax did by five years ago.

I think he falls short of being the greatest ever, at this point in time. I don't think that Koufax is what is keeping him back from that title at all.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by G1911

I think he falls short of being the greatest ever, at this point in time. I don't think that Koufax is what is keeping him back from that title at all.

I agree on both counts.

[cammb]

Originally Posted by Tabe

To be fair, Kershaw had already had more great seasons than Koufax did by five years ago.

I would say Kershaw is indeed a great pitcher, but he is no Koufax.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by cammb

I would say Kershaw is indeed a great pitcher, but he is no Koufax.

Look at his three Cy Young seasons where his numbers are just phenomenal, as well as his next two best seasons, and I'd be curious why you think they don't measure up to Koufax. PS If the issue with Kershaw is post season, yeah I agree with that.

[cammb]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Look at his three Cy Young seasons where his numbers are just phenomenal, as well as his next two best seasons, and I'd be curious why you think they don't measure up to Koufax. PS If the issue with Kershaw is post season, yeah I agree with that.

I am from the old school where innings pitched, strikeouts, complete games and shutouts mean something. Yeah, he is no akoufax

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by cammb

I am from the old school where innings pitched, strikeouts, complete games and shutouts mean something. Yeah, he is no akoufax

Look at Kershaw's K/9 it's quite high. Higher than Koufax actually. As for the other stats, it's hardly Kershaw's fault that he pitches in an era that thinks differently about starting pitchers and days between starts and pitch counts.

[G1911]

Kershaw has pitched more innings (2,454) in his career than Koufax (2,324) did.

Kershaw (2,670) has more strikeouts than Koufax (2,396) did.

Kershaw has a better K/9 than Koufax, 9.8 to 9.3.

Koufax had 40 Shutouts, Kershaw has 15. Kershaw is the active leader, as complete games are dead (unfortunately, personally).

This old-school argument (which I don't think is generally invalid or necessarily bad, innings matter a lot I think, CG's not so much) doesn't seem to support Koufax over Kershaw.

[Carter08]

I have no problem agreeing that wins might be an overrated stat and peak years can outweigh longevity. That said, when Spahn has 198 more wins than Koufax and 178 more wins than Koufax those numbers are just too astronomical for me to overcome. I mean those are would be really high win counts on their own but they are just the delta between Spahn and two greats.*

*Just purchased a PSA Type 1 autographed photo of Spahn from 1942 and am accordingly very biased.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

Kershaw has pitched more innings (2,454) in his career than Koufax (2,324) did.

Kershaw (2,670) has more strikeouts than Koufax (2,396) did.

Kershaw has a better K/9 than Koufax, 9.8 to 9.3.

Koufax had 40 Shutouts, Kershaw has 15. Kershaw is the active leader, as complete games are dead (unfortunately, personally).

This old-school argument (which I don't think is generally invalid or necessarily bad, innings matter a lot I think, CG's not so much) doesn't seem to support Koufax over Kershaw.

The old school argument, it seems to me, automatically discounts anyone from the past two decades or even longer. I get the romantic notion that men were men in the good old days and today's pitchers are wimps, but the game is what it is, today's pitchers don't choose to be rested more or to be on pitch counts.

[cammb]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Look at his three Cy Young seasons where his numbers are just phenomenal, as well as his next two best seasons, and I'd be curious why you think they don't measure up to Koufax. PS If the issue with Kershaw is post season, yeah I agree with that.

It is not if Kershaw measures up to Koufax or not. I have seen Koufax pitch plenty of times as well as Kershaw. Koufax made me grin every time he struck some one out. That curve ball was sick. I am not a dodger fan but loved a great pitcher when I saw him and ,TO ME, he will always be the best. I can say the same for Mickey Mantle. I hated the yankees but loved to see Mantle at bat.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by cammb

It is not if Kershaw measures up to Koufax or not. I have seen Koufax pitch plenty of times as well as Kershaw. Koufax made me grin every time he struck some one out. That curve ball was sick. I am not a dodger fan but loved a great pitcher when I saw him and ,TO ME, he will always be the best. I can say the same for Mickey Mantle. I hated the yankees but loved to see Mantle at bat.

This is “my personal favorite” not “the best of all time”.

[cammb]

Originally Posted by G1911

This is “my personal favorite” not “the best of all time”.

This is "my personal favorite AND "the best of all time!"

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by cammb

This is "my personal favorite AND "the best of all time!"

Your rationale suggests had you seen Grove go 28-5 in 1930 and 31-4 the following year (and 2-1 in the World Series each of those years) you'd say Grove.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by cammb

It is not if Kershaw measures up to Koufax or not. I have seen Koufax pitch plenty of times as well as Kershaw. Koufax made me grin every time he struck some one out. That curve ball was sick. I am not a dodger fan but loved a great pitcher when I saw him and ,TO ME, he will always be the best. I can say the same for Mickey Mantle. I hated the yankees but loved to see Mantle at bat.

I think it was in Jane Leavy's book, Mantle is quoted as saying to Roseboro the first time he sees Koufax's big curve, how in the *&^*( am I supposed to hit that?

[cammb]

Originally Posted by peter_spaeth

i think it was in jane leavy's book, mantle is quoted as saying to roseboro the first time he sees koufax's big curve, how in the *&^*( am i supposed to hit that?

b i n g o !!!!!

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I think it was in Jane Leavy's book, Mantle is quoted as saying to Roseboro the first time he sees Koufax's big curve, how in the *&^*( am I supposed to hit that?

Play against Sandy anywhere other than Dodger Stadium

[clydepepper]

First Game I ever saw on TV influenced me a lot:

31x42 SANDY KOUFAX Autographed Poster.jpg

1964 Topps- KOUFAX Strikes Out 15 PSA.DNA.jpg1963 World series Game1 Ticket - Sandy Koufax PSA-DNA.jpg

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Tabe

Play against Sandy anywhere other than Dodger Stadium

LOL but Game 1 was in Yankee Stadium.