Best lefty off all time? My vote is Koufax!

[earlywynnfan]

Originally Posted by Snowman

I think Grove was probably better than Spahn. But I can't say that with confidence without spending a significant amount of time making adjustments to control for the level of skill of the league in general during their respective eras.

But even leaving league adjustments aside, pretending that the league was every bit as strong when Grove was pitching (which it most certainly was not), Koufax still outperformed Grove's numbers across the board in the postseason, and it's not close. The only statistic that Grove was better at was BB/9, but Grove also had a larger strike zone to work with than Koufax did (top of the shoulders to bottom of the knees vs armit to top of the knees). Regardless, Koufax put significantly fewer batters on base, was scored on half as much, and struck out batters almost twice as often. What's there to compare? Koufax was significantly better than Grove in the postseason (and Grove was great).

Serious question. I don't know the answer, but was there any pitcher ever, right or left-handed, who was better in the postseason than Koufax with at least 50+ IP?

Either way, postseason performance isn't all that interesting to me. The sample sizes are just too small for it to be as meaningful as most people want it to be.

Wait, aren't you the one who said that this should boil down to who you'd want to start game 7 of the WS? Is this conversation about peak, career, or just one start for you?
Why do you have to "pretend" Grove's era was as strong as Koufax's, when Koufax pitched against the 1964 Twins?
Why do you bring up Grove's strike zone but not Grove's lower mound?

[cammb]

Statistics aside. Being selected to the hall as the youngest player ever mean anything to the naysayers? That is a great tribute when the writers basically went by five seasons of greatness.

[Carter08]

Originally Posted by cammb

Statistics aside. Being selected to the hall as the youngest player ever mean anything to the naysayers? That is a great tribute when the writers basically went by five seasons of greatness.

I don’t think even the “naysayers” have Koufax out of the top 3 or so. It’s the 5 seasons of greatness and not more that have him out of the top 2.

[earlywynnfan]

Originally Posted by Carter08

I don’t think even the “naysayers” have Koufax out of the top 3 or so. It’s the 5 seasons of greatness and not more that have him out of the top 2.

I would wholeheartedly agree with this statement. Or, to allow for differences of opinion, nobody leaves him out of top 5? Maybe Spahn or Carlton has a case?? But Koufax was one friggin' awesome pitcher.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Carter08

I don’t think even the “naysayers” have Koufax out of the top 3 or so. It’s the 5 seasons of greatness and not more that have him out of the top 2.

Well, I would rank him 5th or 6th I think, behind Grove, Johnson, Spahn, Carlton and Kershaw, although Kershaw's post-season makes me not that enthusiastic. I would certainly rank Carlton ahead based on the overall body of work.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Well, I would rank him 5th or 6th I think, behind Grove, Johnson, Spahn, Carlton and Kershaw, although Kershaw's post-season makes me not that enthusiastic. I would certainly rank Carlton ahead based on the overall body of work.

Carlton in 1972 is one of the top peak pitching years. WAR has it better than anything Koufax or Grove did.

I’d throw Ford into consideration on your list, but I agree. Ranking 6th or 7th all time is not disparaging. It’s better than most statistical rankings would put him too. Koufax is 89th in pitching WAR.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

Carlton in 1972 is one of the top peak pitching years. WAR has it better than anything Koufax or Grove did.

I’d throw Ford into consideration on your list, but I agree. Ranking 6th or 7th all time is not disparaging. It’s better than most statistical rankings would put him too. Koufax is 89th in pitching WAR.

4 Cy Youngs overall. Including one at 37.

[Carter08]

Carlton was ending right as I was getting into baseball so I didn’t think much of him, especially since I was a Mets fan and he was a longtime Philly. Looking at his stats he was just absurdly good.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

4 Cy Youngs overall. Including one at 37.

My favorite Carlton stat is that when he went 27-10 with a 1.92 ERA in 1972, his team won only 59 games.

27-10, .730 with a Carlton decision.

32-87, .367 when anyone else was the deciding pitcher.

What a fantastic season.

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by cammb

Statistics aside. Being selected to the hall as the youngest player ever mean anything to the naysayers? That is a great tribute when the writers basically went by five seasons of greatness.

Duh --- If you pitch extremely effectively until you are 40 or more (Spahn, Johnson & Grove), you will not be elected to the Hall of Fame at the age of 37. Sorry Tony, but your argument has a big hole in it.

Jeez, if there could only be one left-handed pitcher in Cooperstown, it would be a war zone. Jousting Net54 proponents of each pitcher could settle this definitively in less time than it takes to read this thread, but I bet none of you would volunteer to participate in a joust.

C'mon men.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

Duh --- If you pitch extremely effectively until you are 40 or more (Spahn, Johnson & Grove), you will not be elected to the Hall of Fame at the age of 37. Sorry Tony, but your argument has a big hole in it.

Jeez, if there could only be one left-handed pitcher in Cooperstown, it would be a war zone. Jousting Net54 proponents of each pitcher could settle this definitively in less time than it takes to read this thread, but I bet none of you would volunteer to participate in a joust.

C'mon men.

Frank,

You're 100% right! (Good lord, did I actually just say that? )

This is a debate that cannot be won or lost as it is a totally subjective question that no statistics or other objective information can ever truly answer. Everyone has their own opinions and biases, and we're dealing with different people across different eras and times, playing under different rules and circumstances, along with a myriad of other different mitigating and contributing factors. People debating on here are taking many things out of context in their arguments, or forgetting that context even matters to begin with. Or they start reciting statistics, but pick and choose, or narrow and/or expand, the scope and/or time period of those chosen statistics to tailor them to produce the result they want it it to be. There has been no exact, specific definition of precisely what the word "best" or "greatest" means in the context of this hotly debated question. And until such an accord as to the precise definition is reached by all the partipants, there will never be the remotest possibility of arriving at a consensus answer to the question.

I personally don't know who the greatest left handed pitcher of all time (to date) is, but can certainly concur and agree with all the candidates that have been nominated in this thread as to at least being in the discussion. What I don't agree with is when people forget, ignore, or purposely disregard the context of situations, circumstances, and/or the who, what, and why of their topic of debate and use their narrow minded and focused thinking to insult and disparage those from other times, periods, and circumstances as just being useless, worthless, or just plain out of hand, not good enough or deserving of any consideration. To me, the treatment by some of Grove, and especially Spahn, rises to this disgusting level of what I was just referring to. And it may also bespeak to the type of person those that are guilty of doing such truly are. For if such people, without any real forethought or remorse, can be so dismissing of the likes of Grove and Spahn, how can they react to or think about the likes of you, me, or anyone else out there in the real world?

[Carter08]

Agree!

[brian1961]

Wow. Well written post, Bob. That was quite a broadside salvo of words, I must say. Thank you. -- Brian Powell

[G1911]

Originally Posted by cammb

Statistics aside. Being selected to the hall as the youngest player ever mean anything to the naysayers? That is a great tribute when the writers basically went by five seasons of greatness.

Again, that makes absolutely no sense. Retiring early is not a benefit. Most great pitchers are still producing at 37, not giving their Cooperstown speech. You don’t think his team would rather have had Koufax pitching from 31-37 than sitting at home?