Gil Hodges

mr2686 · #1 12-06-2021, 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tabe

I think it would be more than a little naive to think that the committee ignored Hodges' accomplishments (though they're actually pretty lacking other than 1969) as a manager.

I'm not sure how much they were lacking as a manager. He managed 2 teams, the crappy Senators and the mediocre Mets. If you look at the Senators progression under him, they made great strides every year. The Mets won 12 additional games in his first season with Seaver basically having an identical record from the year before (they did add Koosman). His last two years were solid and almost identical to the Cubs (another strong team from that era) but were up against some up and coming great teams like the Pirates (also the Reds in the opposite division). When you add this to the fact that he was the premier 1b of his era that won 3 gold gloves (would have been much more but they didn't start giving them out till 1957...almost the end of his career. He was long overdue in my book and glad he's finally in.

Tabe · #2 12-06-2021, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr2686

I'm not sure how much they were lacking as a manager. He managed 2 teams, the crappy Senators and the mediocre Mets. If you look at the Senators progression under him, they made great strides every year. The Mets won 12 additional games in his first season with Seaver basically having an identical record from the year before (they did add Koosman). His last two years were solid and almost identical to the Cubs (another strong team from that era) but were up against some up and coming great teams like the Pirates (also the Reds in the opposite division). When you add this to the fact that he was the premier 1b of his era that won 3 gold gloves (would have been much more but they didn't start giving them out till 1957...almost the end of his career. He was long overdue in my book and glad he's finally in.

He was a manager for 9 seasons and won 84+ games once.

Yes, the Senators improved under his tenure but not "great strides every year". From 1965 to 1966, they went up 1 win. 1966 to 1967, they went up 5 wins. Full credit to him for taking over a team that was completely horrible and getting them up to semi-respectable.

Hodges deserves a lot of credit for taking the Mets to the World Series in 1969. But, if that's the case, he deserves a lot of blame for them dropping off 17 wins the next year and not improving the year after that.

None of this is to say Hodges was a bad manager but let's be honest - one World Series title and a record 93 games under .500 isn't exactly amazing. I mean, Cito Gaston won 2 titles, won 84+ games four times, and finished over .500 but nobody lists him as a managerial great.

And, again, none of this matters - Hodges was inducted as a player. So, theoretically, his managerial career shouldn't be considered at all.

jingram058 · #3 12-07-2021, 02:49 PM

Now that Gil Hodges has been selected for induction, I feel like a toy balloon that has had all the helium let out. It has been a thing for me personally for a long time. Should I now devote all of that interest and energy on Dick Allen? Who else should I root for?

Tabe · #4 12-07-2021, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jingram058

Now that Gil Hodges has been selected for induction, I feel like a toy balloon that has had all the helium let out. It has been a thing for me personally for a long time. Should I now devote all of that interest and energy on Dick Allen? Who else should I root for?

Albert Belie

jingram058 · #5 12-07-2021, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tabe

Albert Belie

Yeah, there's a great guy to root for. Like rooting for Curt Schilling. Great guy, well liked by all. Who really cares that he fires a baseball at a kid who had the gaul to ask for an autograph.

earlywynnfan · #6 12-07-2021, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jingram058

Yeah, there's a great guy to root for. Like rooting for Curt Schilling. Great guy, well liked by all. Who really cares that he fires a baseball at a kid who had the gaul to ask for an autograph.

Lifelong Cleveland fan here, and I don't remember this story. I remember him hitting the heckling A-Hole who taunted him about a kegger.

Tabe · #7 12-07-2021, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by earlywynnfan

Lifelong Cleveland fan here, and I don't remember this story. I remember him hitting the heckling A-Hole who taunted him about a kegger.

That's correct. Belle had a well-publicized stint in rehab for alcoholism, which is the backstory for the incident.

That, of course, does not excuse throwing the ball at the guy.

Tabe · #8 12-07-2021, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jingram058

Yeah, there's a great guy to root for. Like rooting for Curt Schilling. Great guy, well liked by all. Who really cares that he fires a baseball at a kid who had the gaul to ask for an autograph.

Nope, definitely not perfect, no question, but easily has HOF credentials as a hitter.

dealme · #9 12-07-2021, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jingram058

Now that Gil Hodges has been selected for induction, I feel like a toy balloon that has had all the helium let out. It has been a thing for me personally for a long time. Should I now devote all of that interest and energy on Dick Allen? Who else should I root for?

Tommy John...for the combination of his pitching and the surgery that bears his name. I suppose one could argue that Dr Jobe should be the one in the Hall, but someone had to have the guts to say, �Sure. Go ahead and try that on me.�

For the record, I think the Hall is watered down. However, given where the current bar is set, I think Tommy John should be in. Plus, like Gil Hodges, he�s a native Hoosier.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Mark17 · #10 12-07-2021, 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dealme

Tommy John...for the combination of his pitching and the surgery that bears his name. I suppose one could argue that Dr Jobe should be the one in the Hall, but someone had to have the guts to say, �Sure. Go ahead and try that on me.�

For the record, I think the Hall is watered down. However, given where the current bar is set, I think Tommy John should be in. Plus, like Gil Hodges, he�s a native Hoosier.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Why are performance enhancing drugs taboo, but performance enhancing surgical procedures celebrated? Seriously, what's the difference? Both use modern technologies to give one athlete an advantage over another.

ClementeFanOh · #11 12-07-2021, 06:48 PM

'Why are performance enhancing drugs taboo, but performance enhancing surgical procedures celebrated? Seriously, what's the difference? Both use modern technologies to give one athlete an advantage over another"

Mark S- I hope I'm missing your sarcasm, truly... if not, the answer to your
question is that surgical repair fixes injury that prevents an athlete from
competing at their earned level. PEDs give the abuser an advantage they
didn't earn or possess in the first place. PLEASE tell me it was sarcasm, renew
my faith...

Trent King

Snapolit1 · #12 12-07-2021, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

'Why are performance enhancing drugs taboo, but performance enhancing surgical procedures celebrated? Seriously, what's the difference? Both use modern technologies to give one athlete an advantage over another"

Mark S- I hope I'm missing your sarcasm, truly... if not, the answer to your
question is that surgical repair fixes injury that prevents an athlete from
competing at their earned level. PEDs give the abuser an advantage they
didn't earn or possess in the first place. PLEASE tell me it was sarcasm, renew
my faith...
Trent King

Generally true, but I have heard anecdotal reports of young kids getting Tommy John as a prophylactic measure before they actually need it. Like "get it out of the way now" kind of logic.

Aquarian Sports Cards · #13 12-08-2021, 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jingram058

Now that Gil Hodges has been selected for induction, I feel like a toy balloon that has had all the helium let out. It has been a thing for me personally for a long time. Should I now devote all of that interest and energy on Dick Allen? Who else should I root for?

Rick Reuschel. Laugh first, then look up the numbers and get back to me.

Peter_Spaeth · #14 12-08-2021, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Rick Reuschel. Laugh first, then look up the numbers and get back to me.

Strange case, as memory serves his four Baseball Reference metrics are really mediocre but despite that he had a great WAR and I think may rank in the top 30 in WAR or maybe the combo WAR WAR7 metric. Ill check. Not sure what the disconnect is there. Reminds me a bit of Bobby Grich on the batter side. Hall of Stats, which apparently is now defunct, rated him very highly.

Yeah, check this out.
Hall of Fame Statistics
Black Ink
Pitching - 7 (426), Average HOFer ≈ 40
Gray Ink
Pitching - 111 (231), Average HOFer ≈ 185
Hall of Fame Monitor
Pitching - 49 (289), Likely HOFer ≈ 100
Hall of Fame Standards
Pitching - 31 (155), Average HOFer ≈ 50
JAWS
Starting Pitcher (32nd):
69.5 career WAR | 43.7 7yr-peak WAR | 56.6 JAWS | 56.4 S-JAWS | 4.3 WAR/16

So for the stat guys, how does this make sense? How can his overall ranking be SO much higher than any of his individual rankings which after all look at stats from a number of angles.

G1911 · #15 12-08-2021, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Strange case, as memory serves his four Baseball Reference metrics are really mediocre but despite that he had a great WAR and I think may rank in the top 30 in WAR or maybe the combo WAR WAR7 metric. Ill check. Not sure what the disconnect is there. Reminds me a bit of Bobby Grich on the batter side. Hall of Stats, which apparently is now defunct, rated him very highly.

Yeah, check this out.
Hall of Fame Statistics
Black Ink
Pitching - 7 (426), Average HOFer ≈ 40
Gray Ink
Pitching - 111 (231), Average HOFer ≈ 185
Hall of Fame Monitor
Pitching - 49 (289), Likely HOFer ≈ 100
Hall of Fame Standards
Pitching - 31 (155), Average HOFer ≈ 50
JAWS
Starting Pitcher (32nd):
69.5 career WAR | 43.7 7yr-peak WAR | 56.6 JAWS | 56.4 S-JAWS | 4.3 WAR/16

So for the stat guys, how does this make sense? How can his overall ranking be SO much higher than any of his individual rankings which after all look at stats from a number of angles.

Because these stats (black ink, grey ink, hall monitor, hall stabdards) look at players who were at top of the league, comparing them effectively to the best of their times or all time. WAR ranks them effectively compared to the absolute worst of the league, not even to league average but over a fantasy �replacement player�. Personally, I think Reuschel�s non WAR stats are a much more accurate picture. I�m not with the new math on Grich either, though he was a little underrated.

Peter_Spaeth · #16 12-08-2021, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G1911

Because these stats (black ink, grey ink, hall monitor, hall stabdards) look at players who were at top of the league, comparing them effectively to the best of their times or all time. WAR ranks them effectively compared to the absolute worst of the league, not even to league average but over a fantasy �replacement player�. Personally, I think Reuschel�s non WAR stats are a much more accurate picture. I�m not with the new math on Grich either, though he was a little underrated.

Pretty unusual disparity though, wouldn't you say? I don't think I've ever seen a player who was so Jekyll and Hyde on the two sets of metrics.

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