SGC no longer grading t206s?

[cammb]

Originally Posted by Eric72

I'd be careful with passing judgment on someone simply because they're part of a particular age cohort. Our very own wazoo was born around the same time as those graders...and I would trust him to grade a T206 accurately.

I don’t know wazoo nor do I know anything about his expertise

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by cammb

I don’t know wazoo nor do I know anything about his expertise

I'm not picking on you or singling you out. However, our brief exchange reminded me of something. Pardon me for "thinking out loud" here.

With the recent influx of younger collectors into the hobby, it won't be long until there are large numbers of twenty-somethings with experience and expertise in vintage. Modern (and "ultra-modern") cards tend to be a gateway into older material. It stands to reason the boom of 2020 will lead to a significant increase in the amount of hobbyists who venture over to our side of the sandbox. If even a small fraction of these newcomers are in it for the long haul, it likely leads to at least two things:

1. A new generation of vintage collectors, which could theoretically keep the hobby going for decades
2. A new generation of experts on the horizon

Of course, this doesn't help SGC with T206 (or other vintage) cards right now. However, it does give me confidence in the long-term health of the vintage card market.

[wazoo]

Originally Posted by Eric72

I'm not picking on you or singling you out. However, our brief exchange reminded me of something. Pardon me for "thinking out loud" here.

With the recent influx of younger collectors into the hobby, it won't be long until there are large numbers of twenty-somethings with experience and expertise in vintage. Modern (and "ultra-modern") cards tend to be a gateway into older material. It stands to reason the boom of 2020 will lead to a significant increase in the amount of hobbyists who venture over to our side of the sandbox. If even a small fraction of these newcomers are in it for the long haul, it likely leads to at least two things:

1. A new generation of vintage collectors, which could theoretically keep the hobby going for decades
2. A new generation of experts on the horizon

Of course, this doesn't help SGC with T206 (or other vintage) cards right now. However, it does give me confidence in the long-term health of the vintage card market.

Totally agree with this. This is what got me to jump the fence from modern to vintage. Started at 12 — and still here!

[cammb]

Originally Posted by Eric72

I'm not picking on you or singling you out. However, our brief exchange reminded me of something. Pardon me for "thinking out loud" here.

With the recent influx of younger collectors into the hobby, it won't be long until there are large numbers of twenty-somethings with experience and expertise in vintage. Modern (and "ultra-modern") cards tend to be a gateway into older material. It stands to reason the boom of 2020 will lead to a significant increase in the amount of hobbyists who venture over to our side of the sandbox. If even a small fraction of these newcomers are in it for the long haul, it likely leads to at least two things:

1. A new generation of vintage collectors, which could theoretically keep the hobby going for decades
2. A new generation of experts on the horizon

Of course, this doesn't help SGC with T206 (or other vintage) cards right now. However, it does give me confidence in the long-term health of the vintage card market.

When SGC started their money grab, they put out a call for job openings, including “graders”. Since then I have noticed a deterioration in the grading of vintage. I know the difference from a NM card compared to a vgex. It seems these graders don’t. I doubt they are all collectors but people looking for jobs. What I saw in the video where young people doing the grading. That’s a fact ,with no disparage meant to their age

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by cammb

When SGC started their money grab, they put out a call for job openings, including “graders”. Since then I have noticed a deterioration in the grading of vintage. I know the difference from a NM card compared to a vgex. It seems these graders don’t. I doubt they are all collectors but people looking for jobs. What I saw in the video where young people doing the grading. That’s a fact ,with no disparage meant to their age

My experience was similar. Also almost overnight, they became centering fanatics. And apparently didn't teach the new graders how to compute centering ratios. A 90/10 card that's otherwise NM should be downgraded, yes, but a 70/30 card that's otherwise perfect shouldn't be a 5. I busted a few SGC slabs like this last year where I felt like even PSA would have given the cards 7's.

[nineunder71]

Eric,
I agree with everything you’ve said on this thread. And absolutely, we have multiple young members here with tons of expertise.

However, I do see both sides of the discussion.

The young members here (like Wazoo) have expertise because they have experience in dealing with vintage cards.

Irrelevant is someone’s age. If they have been dealing with T206s for ten years, they are qualified and typically will give a qualified opinion.

Tony’s point, as I see it, is that these young graders don’t have experience, hence they are not qualified.

Cheers All

Colton

[nineunder71]

Further, what I find funny, is that if Tony would have seen the same video of graders, but it would have been a room full of 60 and 70 year olds at the grading tables, I think there is a good chance he would have just assumed those older graders had experience.

However, the chance or % of the older graders being just as ignorant of vintage cards as the young ones, and just being there for the job, would probably be similar

Haha

Just my two cents

[cammb]

Originally Posted by nineunder71

Further, what I find funny, is that if Tony would have seen the same video of graders, but it would have been a room full of 60 and 70 year olds at the grading tables, I think there is a good chance he would have just assumed those older graders had experience.

However, the chance or % of the older graders being just as ignorant of vintage cards as the young ones, and just being there for the job, would probably be similar

Haha

Just my two cents

No. You missed the whole point. I have been subbing to SGC for years. I sub only vintage. They were pretty consistent with their grades. What I said was their quality of grading has subsided due to the hiring of graders right off the street. In the video I saw, the initial graders looked pretty young. The grading for vintage has declined while modern remains high. I know an ex/mt or NM when I see one but to constantly get or see grades at vg/ex is suspect. My theory is quality control is lacking in an effort to push the product out.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by cammb

When SGC started their money grab, they put out a call for job openings, including “graders”. Since then I have noticed a deterioration in the grading of vintage. I know the difference from a NM card compared to a vgex. It seems these graders don’t. I doubt they are all collectors but people looking for jobs. What I saw in the video where young people doing the grading. That’s a fact ,with no disparage meant to their age

I helped break out several dozen cards of freshly graded vintage material from SGC. Not a single card graded above a 6 and most were 5s and 5.5s. In the submission there were obvious VG+ to VG-EX cards with light wrinkles and noticeable corner wear and then cards that were wrinkle free, well centered that most would deem NM+ to NM-MT and those were in 5s and 5.5s.

Don't care if PSA is $150 per card, there is no point paying $30 per card to be crushed like that. For a buyer of that stuff it is a dream come true but not if you are the seller. Selling an under graded SGC card for top dollar is nearly impossible right now.

[obcbobd]

Originally Posted by Eric72

I'm not picking on you or singling you out. However, our brief exchange reminded me of something. Pardon me for "thinking out loud" here.

With the recent influx of younger collectors into the hobby, it won't be long until there are large numbers of twenty-somethings with experience and expertise in vintage. Modern (and "ultra-modern") cards tend to be a gateway into older material. It stands to reason the boom of 2020 will lead to a significant increase in the amount of hobbyists who venture over to our side of the sandbox. If even a small fraction of these newcomers are in it for the long haul, it likely leads to at least two things:

1. A new generation of vintage collectors, which could theoretically keep the hobby going for decades
2. A new generation of experts on the horizon

Of course, this doesn't help SGC with T206 (or other vintage) cards right now. However, it does give me confidence in the long-term health of the vintage card market.

Is there a huge influx of younger collectors. Leon's recent poll does not seem to show that. I don't run into too many under 30's when looking through vintage at shows

[tschock]

Originally Posted by obcbobd

Is there a huge influx of younger collectors. Leon's recent poll does not seem to show that. I don't run into too many under 30's when looking through vintage at shows

Hmmm, most of the collectors I see at shows are probably under 40 and many even younger. Though they might not be looking at vintage cards.... yet. A poll from within a group of predominantly vintage card collectors is not a good basis for predicting future collectors. It's just a snapshot of where we are and taken only from within a subset of a larger group. I'd be more concerned that younger collectors are not looking at baseball cards, but rather basketball or some other sport (or Pokemon).

It doesn't take a large percentage of card collectors to maintain interest in a small percentage of the card collecting realm (ie vintage). It's from the level of interest in baseball cards as a whole. The future is more related to whether they are into the cards or into the money that can be made as well as related to the level of interest in baseball in general. I do think that set collecting though for baseball cards will eventually go the way of the basketball card market, but I think that will also correlate to how baseball is being marketed.

Similar to other collecting areas (comics, books, records, dolls, cars, etc), people usually get introduced to current items. Those who continue to remain collectors usually work their way backwards.

[frankbmd]

I can't tell the difference between a shiny 8, a shiny 9 and a shiny 10.

So I would not be qualified as a modern grader, or would I?

Do all 10s require paying a grader's premium?

If so, I'll send in my application today.

[nineunder71]

Frank,
I want fries with my order of non-fungibles

[obcbobd]

Originally Posted by tschock

Hmmm, most of the collectors I see at shows are probably under 40 and many even younger. Though they might not be looking at vintage cards.... yet. A poll from within a group of predominantly vintage card collectors is not a good basis for predicting future collectors. It's just a snapshot of where we are and taken only from within a subset of a larger group. I'd be more concerned that younger collectors are not looking at baseball cards, but rather basketball or some other sport (or Pokemon).

It doesn't take a large percentage of card collectors to maintain interest in a small percentage of the card collecting realm (ie vintage). It's from the level of interest in baseball cards as a whole. The future is more related to whether they are into the cards or into the money that can be made as well as related to the level of interest in baseball in general. I do think that set collecting though for baseball cards will eventually go the way of the basketball card market, but I think that will also correlate to how baseball is being marketed.

Similar to other collecting areas (comics, books, records, dolls, cars, etc), people usually get introduced to current items. Those who continue to remain collectors usually work their way backwards.

Taylor,

My point is about young VINTAGE collectors. Yes, most of the crowd at a show is young, but I see very few with an interest in vintage. It's more recent and it's more driven by making money as opposed to completing sets or building a collection.

You can theorize that the 20 year olds now will get into vintage, my point is did the 20 year olds of 10 years ago? I'm not seeing evidence that they did, nor that they are now

Bob

[tschock]

Originally Posted by obcbobd

Taylor,

My point is about young VINTAGE collectors. Yes, most of the crowd at a show is young, but I see very few with an interest in vintage. It's more recent and it's more driven by making money as opposed to completing sets or building a collection.

You can theorize that the 20 year olds now will get into vintage, my point is did the 20 year olds of 10 years ago? I'm not seeing evidence that they did, nor that they are now

Bob

My bad. I went back an re-read your post in the context as a response to Eric's post. I believe we are thinking along the same lines but were talking about 2 different things. I wasn't looking at it as 20 year olds, per se. But as the next generation of vintage collectors, which for the most part doesn't kick in until the mid-30s or later due to nostalgia and having children.

[G1911]

I’m 30. I started collecting vintage at 8 or 9. Pre-war at like 10. Which means picking up a T206 every couple months, because I was a broke kid. I remained broke until I was 25, which is largely why my focus was non sport and boxing more than baseball. My broke ass could afford a T218 sometimes.

Lots of kind, older gentleman helped to educate me and get me going and I am proud to have as friends. And lots still insist I am always wrong because simply I’m younger than them. Card collectors and fallacious argument go together like peanut butter and jelly. I’ve found men of insight and men of idiocy in every age group and segment of society. I’ve yet to see any evidence that age has much to do with it.

Most younger people in cards are in it for the money. This is absolutely true. I’m young and hip enough (I’m not hip, fine) to have spent significant time in the younger centered communities, primarily the Discords. They are in it for the money, they are engaging in market manipulation openly and some of them don’t seem to understand what fraud is. They leave a strongly negative taste in my mouth, but that’s like, my opinion, man.

However, I’m not sure this will be perpetual. It takes time to go through college, to start a career and accumulate enough wealth that one may be a true collector instead of a flipper and profiteer. I am certainly less affluent than most here, but I sit in a position of extreme luck and privilege to talk about buying $1000 cards and not really caring what they are worth on a hypothetical resale I’m never going to make. 99% of 30 year olds are not so fortunate and lucky. I think, personally, this is one of the worst impacts of money taking over our hobby, we are making it increasingly difficult for people to even be collectors at all. When our 60 year old members were 30, vintage card collecting was doable on a relatively small budget. It really isn’t so now. Even a poor beater T206 common is $25. Todays flippers are largely flippers because they need money, they’re supplementing income to get themselves going so they may improve their life and build a family. They may become collectors when they are 50 and are more likely to be able to afford it. I’m disgusted by certain business practices common among this crowd, but I can’t hate ‘the game’ too much. When you’re two years out of college and making 40K after taxes in Silicon Valley, you can barely afford to live, much less have children. ‘Stack those racks’ kids.

Not to be dark, but I think it is reality that an influx of young collectors is needed or as the aging vintage collector base dies out they will get pennys for the dollar on their stuff. What happens in 20 years if there is no such influx, and all that generation is reaching the end and they or their families are liquidating collections? Personally, I want the prices to crash so I can collect more, but I suspect this is a very minority view here. I’m not so sure older vintage collectors are really all that different than the Gary Vee worshipping guys lining up at Wal Mart. Many “collectors” are pretty open that their cards are part of their retirement portfolio or an investment. It’s just a longer flip, and that longer flip is a gamble that this influx of younger folks will be interested.

[wolf441]

Originally Posted by G1911

I’m 30. I started collecting vintage at 8 or 9. Pre-war at like 10. Which means picking up a T206 every couple months, because I was a broke kid. I remained broke until I was 25, which is largely why my focus was non sport and boxing more than baseball. My broke ass could afford a T218 sometimes.

Lots of kind, older gentleman helped to educate me and get me going and I am proud to have as friends. And lots still insist I am always wrong because simply I’m younger than them. Card collectors and fallacious argument go together like peanut butter and jelly. I’ve found men of insight and men of idiocy in every age group and segment of society. I’ve yet to see any evidence that age has much to do with it.

Most younger people in cards are in it for the money. This is absolutely true. I’m young and hip enough (I’m not hip, fine) to have spent significant time in the younger centered communities, primarily the Discords. They are in it for the money, they are engaging in market manipulation openly and some of them don’t seem to understand what fraud is. They leave a strongly negative taste in my mouth, but that’s like, my opinion, man.

However, I’m not sure this will be perpetual. It takes time to go through college, to start a career and accumulate enough wealth that one may be a true collector instead of a flipper and profiteer. I am certainly less affluent than most here, but I sit in a position of extreme luck and privilege to talk about buying $1000 cards and not really caring what they are worth on a hypothetical resale I’m never going to make. 99% of 30 year olds are not so fortunate and lucky. I think, personally, this is one of the worst impacts of money taking over our hobby, we are making it increasingly difficult for people to even be collectors at all. When our 60 year old members were 30, vintage card collecting was doable on a relatively small budget. It really isn’t so now. Even a poor beater T206 common is $25. Todays flippers are largely flippers because they need money, they’re supplementing income to get themselves going so they may improve their life and build a family. They may become collectors when they are 50 and are more likely to be able to afford it. I’m disgusted by certain business practices common among this crowd, but I can’t hate ‘the game’ too much. When you’re two years out of college and making 40K after taxes in Silicon Valley, you can barely afford to live, much less have children. ‘Stack those racks’ kids.

Not to be dark, but I think it is reality that an influx of young collectors is needed or as the aging vintage collector base dies out they will get pennys for the dollar on their stuff. What happens in 20 years if there is no such influx, and all that generation is reaching the end and they or their families are liquidating collections? Personally, I want the prices to crash so I can collect more, but I suspect this is a very minority view here. I’m not so sure older vintage collectors are really all that different than the Gary Vee worshipping guys lining up at Wal Mart. Many “collectors” are pretty open that their cards are part of their retirement portfolio or an investment. It’s just a longer flip, and that longer flip is a gamble that this influx of younger folks will be interested.

Nice, well-thought out post.

The thing that turns me off about collecting now, is that the "investors" treat it as a zero sum game. They are looking to make money (which is fine) and to do so means that they are always looking to profit from someone else's lack of knowledge. It takes away the camaraderie that used to make collecting so much fun. I recently went into a new card store near the Patriots stadium in Foxboro. The two guys working there didn't even look up at me when I entered (there was no one else in the building). I asked if they had any tobacco cards and got a snarky response about "oh, you mean like the Honus Wagner? No." I turned around and walked right out...

Unfortunately, it's getting harder and harder to find fellow collectors who are willing to just shoot the breeze and talk about the cards that they love.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by tschock

Hmmm, most of the collectors I see at shows are probably under 40 and many even younger. Though they might not be looking at vintage cards.... yet. A poll from within a group of predominantly vintage card collectors is not a good basis for predicting future collectors. It's just a snapshot of where we are and taken only from within a subset of a larger group. I'd be more concerned that younger collectors are not looking at baseball cards, but rather basketball or some other sport (or Pokemon).

It doesn't take a large percentage of card collectors to maintain interest in a small percentage of the card collecting realm (ie vintage). It's from the level of interest in baseball cards as a whole. The future is more related to whether they are into the cards or into the money that can be made as well as related to the level of interest in baseball in general. I do think that set collecting though for baseball cards will eventually go the way of the basketball card market, but I think that will also correlate to how baseball is being marketed.

Similar to other collecting areas (comics, books, records, dolls, cars, etc), people usually get introduced to current items. Those who continue to remain collectors usually work their way backwards.

Some very good points IMO.

One of the questions/concerns I've thought is with that perceived level of interest among the newer generations. If you think about it, the "boom" in the baseball card collecting hobby literally began and grew with the Baby Boomer generation, which coincided exactly with the emergence of Bowman and Topps as the major card producing companies. This was the beginning of an as then unique time because before, literally (with a few exceptions) every every other card set that had ever come out and been issued only survived for a year or two. Aside from maybe Exhibit cards, which are not normally thought of as actual mainstream baseball cards, and Zeenut cards, which were not of current MLB players, the previous longest running, ongoing card distributors of any truly significant level are the Goodwin & Co. Old Judge cards, from 1886-1890, the American Tobacco Co.'s (ATC) T206 cards from 1909-1911, Goudey and their on again, off again production of regular, main cards sets from 1933-1941 (am not counting the premiums, thum movies, etc.), and Playball cards from 1939-1941. WW II effectively took out Goudey and Playball, the Sherman Anti-Trust Act ultimately caused the discontinuance of T206 cards when it broke up the ATC, and (maybe somewhat ironically) the Old Judge cards stopped due to business decisions that resulted in the formation of the ATC. It wasn't until Bowman, beginning in 1948, and Topps, beginning in 1951, that we entered into an era where kids (the true heart and beginning of the baseball collecting hobby) could pretty much count on knowing there would be a another set of their beloved baseball players put out on similar cards year after year, by the same manufacturer. Bowman initially made it 8 straight years through 1955, when Topps bought them out, while Topps (for now) is still going strong, 70 years later.

Anyway, those Baby Boomer kids grew up being able to walk into virtually any corner, dime, or drug store, and always count on seeing a box with packs of their favorite baseball cards for sale, at extremely affordable prices. Sitting right out there on the counters, generally next to the register where you checked out and paid for everything. So you absolutely couldn't miss seeing them, and bugging Mom or Dad for a pack, and you got a stick of gum with each pack to boot.

Now fast forward to the '80s and all those Baby Boomers who grew up with those cards and memories, and are now heading into middle age. They start waxing (pun intended) nostalgic about their past youth, and all their cards their Moms had thrown out when they first left home. So now that they are older, and have jobs and some money, they jump back into cards trying to recapture even a small part of their youth and the wonderful memories of opening packs, playing with and trading their cards with others, and even the smell and taste of those crappy sticks of gum. And of course, ours being a capitalistic society, it also brought out all of the people and companies trying to take advantage to make as much money as they could off those Baby Boomer dreams and memories. Thus in the '80s started the "boom" in the card hobby, and have led us to today where cards are now big business and thought off more and more often as investments, as opposed to being tied to wonderful past memories of our youth. I've read that there is something like literally 10,000 Baby Boomers joining the retired ranks every single day, and by 2031, every single Baby Boomer will have reached full retirement age. It has been decades now since kids could walk into virtually any store and find packs of baseball cards for sale, let alone any affordable ones. Aside from the few card shops that may still be around, my understanding is that Target (and maybe Walmart) are the only two well-known retailers that may still sell baseball cards direct to the general public today. I was out last night doing some Christmas shopping, and stopped in my local Target store. Curious, I went looking to see if they were selling any cards, and finally found some for sale in a little out-of-the-way aisle display. What blew me away was that 90%+ of what was displayed was of things like Magic or Yu-Gi-Oh, cards. There were some Topps and Panini baseball and football cards (no basketball though) for sale, but what really stunned me was that they had single packs of some Topps 2021 baseball base set on sale for $14.99 a pack. That was the cheapest baseball item they had for sale, just a simple pack with like six cards in it, and no guarantee of at least getting one auto, game used, prism, refractor, numbered, or other non-base card in it. I was stunned and didn't realize how ridiculous these modern card prices have gotten. No wonder people don't try to buy packs to put together sets anymore. Heck, they could have at least put a piece of gum in the pack for that kind of price, right? What kids today are ever going to have the same experiences and memories that Baby Boomers did as kids buying packs of baseball cards. NONE!

So how does that bode for baseball cards as a true hobby in the future? Not so sure. The "boom" that started and was caused by the Baby Boomers in the '80s may have also triggered and started leading us down the path to what will ultimately be the "doom" of baseball card collecting as a true hobby. Oh, it will likely survive, but younger people won't necessarily be getting into it for memories and nostalgic reasons. It will likely be just as much, if not more so, about the benjamins, and people in future generations getting involved for investment and monetary reasons. And it is neither good or bad really, just what it more likely will be. And as the Baby Boomer generation that initially caused and started this phenomenon and fuss starts to leave us, I hope that baseball cards don't turn into another Dutch tulip bulb bubble that pops some day.

[nineunder71]

This is all very interesting, I really like where this thread has gone.

Same with all prognostications; some will be right and some will be wrong.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by obcbobd

Is there a huge influx of younger collectors...

Yes, I believe there has been. I also believe, for some of them, modern and ultra-modern cards will be a gateway into vintage.

Again, this doesn't help SGC with T206 (or other vintage) cards right now. However, it does give me confidence in the long-term health of the vintage card market.

With regard to the poll, it's not surprising. Net54 members are among the most knowledgeable vintage baseball card collectors on the planet. There are seasoned cardboard veterans here who have forgotten more than most people will ever learn. It stands to reason a majority of us are a bit long in the tooth.

It can be difficult to gain acceptance here. Hell, I've been around for almost ten years and I still feel like the new guy at times. To coin a phrase, this can be a "tough crowd" to newcomers.

[profholt82]

Originally Posted by obcbobd

Is there a huge influx of younger collectors. Leon's recent poll does not seem to show that. I don't run into too many under 30's when looking through vintage at shows

While I'm sure the numbers are still overwhelmingly older collectors for vintage, I doubt that poll accurately reflects the current collector scene because most younger (under 30) collectors do not use traditional collector forums such as this one. They would most likely be using social media platforms such as Facebook and Instachat (and probably some other thing I dont even know about, ha) as their internet collecting meeting places of choice. I think net54 is probably off the radar of most younger collectors. And through the covid boom, we've seen a massive surge in young people entering the hobby, it only makes sense that some of them would gravitate toward vintage.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by cammb

I don’t know wazoo nor do I know anything about his expertise

I think that's kinda the point...

[wazoo]

Finally a thread about me! And it’s nice lol.