2022 Baseball Hall of Fame - tracker

sycks22 · #1 01-24-2022, 05:08 PM

I'll never understand how Scott Rolen might get in at some point. He was a decent player and only was in the top 13 of MVP voting once in his career. He was never great in any category and was average in most of them. I guess he's better than Harold Baines, so there's that.

Peter_Spaeth · #2 01-24-2022, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sycks22

I'll never understand how Scott Rolen might get in at some point. He was a decent player and only was in the top 13 of MVP voting once in his career. He was never great in any category and was average in most of them. I guess he's better than Harold Baines, so there's that.

Lower standard statistically for third basemen, no?

jayshum · #3 01-24-2022, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Lower standard statistically for third basemen, no?

Third base is one of the least represented positions in the Hall so I think standards have generally been higher for third basemen not lower.

Peter_Spaeth · #4 01-24-2022, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jayshum

Third base is one of the least represented positions in the Hall so I think standards have generally been higher for third basemen not lower.

I don't think so. I think you'll find statistically that the 3B who have been elected are in a somewhat lower range than outfielders and first basemen.

jayshum · #5 01-24-2022, 08:21 PM

Average career WAR for third basemen is 68.4 and for first basemen it's 66, for LF it's 65.2, RF it's 71.1 and CF it's 71.6 (from Jay Jaffe HoF write ups) so they're all pretty close. By position, I know there used to be less third basemen than other positions. Chipper Jones and Ron Santo have gone in somewhat recently, but I still think the position overall is underrepresented.

Peter_Spaeth · #6 01-24-2022, 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jayshum

Average career WAR for third basemen is 68.4 and for first basemen it's 66, for LF it's 65.2, RF it's 71.1 and CF it's 71.6 (from Jay Jaffe HoF write ups) so they're all pretty close. By position, I know there used to be less third basemen than other positions. Chipper Jones and Ron Santo have gone in somewhat recently, but I still think the position overall is underrepresented.

Yeah that was one of the rationales being articulated for Ken Boyer but I guess it was unavailing.

jimtodd · #7 01-24-2022, 08:30 PM

3B have the least HOF inductees of any position (only 17).

Here are 4 different 3rd basemen:
1.) .277/.362/.464, 342 HR, 62.1 WAR, 9 AS, 5 GG
2.) .306/.369/.448, 234 HR, 75.7 WAR, 7 AS, 0 GG
3.) .312/.418/.515, 309 HR, 68.4 WAR, 7 AS, 0 GG
4.) .281/.364/.490, 316 HR, 70.1 WAR, 7 AS, 8 GG

Santo, Molitor, Edgar, Rolen. All fairly similar mid-tier HOFers. And Rolen is the best glove of the group.

Schmidt, Mathews, Boggs, Brett, Chipper and Robinson would likely be top tier 3B for most in no particular order.

Then, also in no particular order, probably come these 4, plus Baker, Collins and now Beltre.

Who else would you guys put in the conversation?

sycks22 · #8 01-24-2022, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimtodd

3B have the least HOF inductees of any position (only 17).

Here are 4 different 3rd basemen:
1.) .277/.362/.464, 342 HR, 62.1 WAR, 9 AS, 5 GG
2.) .306/.369/.448, 234 HR, 75.7 WAR, 7 AS, 0 GG
3.) .312/.418/.515, 309 HR, 68.4 WAR, 7 AS, 0 GG
4.) .281/.364/.490, 316 HR, 70.1 WAR, 7 AS, 8 GG

Santo, Molitor, Edgar, Rolen. All fairly similar mid-tier HOFers. And Rolen is the best glove of the group.

Schmidt, Mathews, Boggs, Brett, Chipper and Robinson would likely be top tier 3B for most in no particular order.

Then, also in no particular order, probably come these 4, plus Baker, Collins and now Beltre.

Who else would you guys put in the conversation?

Molitor and Rolen aren't in the same stadium. 3319 hits, .306 Avg, 504 sb for Molitor. Rolen had 2077 hits and 316 hrs in 17 seasons. Explain to me how those are similar players?

Mike D. · #9 01-24-2022, 09:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sycks22

Molitor and Rolen aren't in the same stadium. 3319 hits, .306 Avg, 504 sb for Molitor. Rolen had 2077 hits and 316 hrs in 17 seasons. Explain to me how those are similar players?

I don't know that they're similar...they went about things differently.

I found this pretty interesting, though...they both had a career OPS+ of 122.

I also thought it was interesting that Molitor actually DH'ed more than he played 3B...1,174 games to 791. The BB-R WAR lists are imperfect that way, maybe because they don't have one for DH (for example, Edgar Martinez appears on the 3B WAR list just after Rolen).

Tabe · #10 01-24-2022, 09:29 PM

I will never understand voters who vote for Ortiz but not Bonds or Clemens or Rodriguez. Bonds and Clemens didn't even fail tests - Ortiz did*. Rodriguez did - and paid for it. Ortiz did and received no punishment.

Maybe if those three had given a profane speech and been historically awful defensively they, too, could get elected.

* - Ortiz and Rob Manfred have both confirmed he failed a test. It's not speculation, unlike anything surrounding Bonds and Clemens.

bbcard1 · #11 01-25-2022, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sycks22

Molitor and Rolen aren't in the same stadium. 3319 hits, .306 Avg, 504 sb for Molitor. Rolen had 2077 hits and 316 hrs in 17 seasons. Explain to me how those are similar players?

OTOH, although Molitor's plaque says third base, he spent more of his career as a DH. I am certainly not arguing Molitor is not legit as a HOFer as he certainly is, but I don't think he became a DH because he was an asset in the field.

Mike D. · #12 01-24-2022, 05:39 PM

Looking at BB-R WAR:

Rolen ranks 10th in WAR among third basemen all time. The average WAR of the 15 Hall of Fame 3B is 68.4. Rolen put up 70.

And it�s not like he wasn�t recognized during his career�7 time all star, 8 gold gloves, etc.

Mike D. · #13 01-24-2022, 06:13 PM

MLB.com had an article today on the players who got elected in their last year on the ballot (well, last year of eligibility - technically every player elected gets elected on their last year on the ballot):

https://www.mlb.com/news/hall-of-fam...lot-c302974298

Bobsbats · #14 01-24-2022, 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sycks22

I'll never understand how Scott Rolen might get in at some point. He was a decent player and only was in the top 13 of MVP voting once in his career. He was never great in any category and was average in most of them. I guess he's better than Harold Baines, so there's that.

Peter,

I couldn't agree with you more. Rolen was a fantastic defensive 3Bman, but this hype over him is ridiculous.

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