2022 Baseball Hall of Fame - tracker

jayshum · #1 01-24-2022, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Lower standard statistically for third basemen, no?

Third base is one of the least represented positions in the Hall so I think standards have generally been higher for third basemen not lower.

Peter_Spaeth · #2 01-24-2022, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jayshum

Third base is one of the least represented positions in the Hall so I think standards have generally been higher for third basemen not lower.

I don't think so. I think you'll find statistically that the 3B who have been elected are in a somewhat lower range than outfielders and first basemen.

jayshum · #3 01-24-2022, 08:21 PM

Average career WAR for third basemen is 68.4 and for first basemen it's 66, for LF it's 65.2, RF it's 71.1 and CF it's 71.6 (from Jay Jaffe HoF write ups) so they're all pretty close. By position, I know there used to be less third basemen than other positions. Chipper Jones and Ron Santo have gone in somewhat recently, but I still think the position overall is underrepresented.

Peter_Spaeth · #4 01-24-2022, 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jayshum

Average career WAR for third basemen is 68.4 and for first basemen it's 66, for LF it's 65.2, RF it's 71.1 and CF it's 71.6 (from Jay Jaffe HoF write ups) so they're all pretty close. By position, I know there used to be less third basemen than other positions. Chipper Jones and Ron Santo have gone in somewhat recently, but I still think the position overall is underrepresented.

Yeah that was one of the rationales being articulated for Ken Boyer but I guess it was unavailing.

jimtodd · #5 01-24-2022, 08:30 PM

3B have the least HOF inductees of any position (only 17).

Here are 4 different 3rd basemen:
1.) .277/.362/.464, 342 HR, 62.1 WAR, 9 AS, 5 GG
2.) .306/.369/.448, 234 HR, 75.7 WAR, 7 AS, 0 GG
3.) .312/.418/.515, 309 HR, 68.4 WAR, 7 AS, 0 GG
4.) .281/.364/.490, 316 HR, 70.1 WAR, 7 AS, 8 GG

Santo, Molitor, Edgar, Rolen. All fairly similar mid-tier HOFers. And Rolen is the best glove of the group.

Schmidt, Mathews, Boggs, Brett, Chipper and Robinson would likely be top tier 3B for most in no particular order.

Then, also in no particular order, probably come these 4, plus Baker, Collins and now Beltre.

Who else would you guys put in the conversation?

sycks22 · #6 01-24-2022, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimtodd

3B have the least HOF inductees of any position (only 17).

Here are 4 different 3rd basemen:
1.) .277/.362/.464, 342 HR, 62.1 WAR, 9 AS, 5 GG
2.) .306/.369/.448, 234 HR, 75.7 WAR, 7 AS, 0 GG
3.) .312/.418/.515, 309 HR, 68.4 WAR, 7 AS, 0 GG
4.) .281/.364/.490, 316 HR, 70.1 WAR, 7 AS, 8 GG

Santo, Molitor, Edgar, Rolen. All fairly similar mid-tier HOFers. And Rolen is the best glove of the group.

Schmidt, Mathews, Boggs, Brett, Chipper and Robinson would likely be top tier 3B for most in no particular order.

Then, also in no particular order, probably come these 4, plus Baker, Collins and now Beltre.

Who else would you guys put in the conversation?

Molitor and Rolen aren't in the same stadium. 3319 hits, .306 Avg, 504 sb for Molitor. Rolen had 2077 hits and 316 hrs in 17 seasons. Explain to me how those are similar players?

Mike D. · #7 01-24-2022, 09:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sycks22

Molitor and Rolen aren't in the same stadium. 3319 hits, .306 Avg, 504 sb for Molitor. Rolen had 2077 hits and 316 hrs in 17 seasons. Explain to me how those are similar players?

I don't know that they're similar...they went about things differently.

I found this pretty interesting, though...they both had a career OPS+ of 122.

I also thought it was interesting that Molitor actually DH'ed more than he played 3B...1,174 games to 791. The BB-R WAR lists are imperfect that way, maybe because they don't have one for DH (for example, Edgar Martinez appears on the 3B WAR list just after Rolen).

Tabe · #8 01-24-2022, 09:29 PM

I will never understand voters who vote for Ortiz but not Bonds or Clemens or Rodriguez. Bonds and Clemens didn't even fail tests - Ortiz did*. Rodriguez did - and paid for it. Ortiz did and received no punishment.

Maybe if those three had given a profane speech and been historically awful defensively they, too, could get elected.

* - Ortiz and Rob Manfred have both confirmed he failed a test. It's not speculation, unlike anything surrounding Bonds and Clemens.

Peter_Spaeth · #9 01-24-2022, 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tabe

I will never understand voters who vote for Ortiz but not Bonds or Clemens or Rodriguez. Bonds and Clemens didn't even fail tests - Ortiz did*. Rodriguez did - and paid for it. Ortiz did and received no punishment.

Maybe if those three had given a profane speech and been historically awful defensively they, too, could get elected.

* - Ortiz and Rob Manfred have both confirmed he failed a test. It's not speculation, unlike anything surrounding Bonds and Clemens.

Last I read Manfred was spinning a story about how it could have been a false positive.

I'm fuzzy on the Bonds story now. Didn't he acknowledge using the "clear" but claimed his trainer told him it was a lawful supplement?

Anyhow there is no good answer to this once you make an exception for anyone. Even if you don't make an overt exception, you've almost certainly already let in people who used but managed to keep the lid on suspicions.

Jim65 · #10 01-25-2022, 05:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Last I read Manfred was spinning a story about how it could have been a false positive.

I'm fuzzy on the Bonds story now. Didn't he acknowledge using the "clear" but claimed his trainer told him it was a lawful supplement?

Anyhow there is no good answer to this once you make an exception for anyone. Even if you don't make an overt exception, you've almost certainly already let in people who used but managed to keep the lid on suspicions.

Peter, by Manfred saying there might be a false positive on Ortiz, he's admitting there was a positive, right? So Ortiz lied when he said he never failed a test.

You are correct about Bonds, admited in Grand Jury, he "unknowingly" took the Clear and the Cream but that it had no affect on him.

There are Steroid cheaters in the HOF, Pudge Rodriguez, just to name one. Does that mean they should make more mistakes? Just an analogy, because Jack the Ripper and the Zodiac were never caught, do we stop arresting people for murder?

FrankWakefield · #11 01-24-2022, 10:16 PM

I saw Aaron play. More than once. He was a gentleman, and a Hall of Fame baseball player.

Ortiz. He hit .280 something and hit 540 something home runs. I think he played less than 300 games in the field. He can kinda border line (in my mind) get into the Hall. I'd not consider him 1st year eligible material. For folks who get hung up on positive tests, please consider being a bit consistent with that. Don't keep Bonds out if you're ok with Ortiz getting in. McGwire and Clemmons the same. Put 'em in (I lean towards that) or keep all of them out.

I'm a lifelong Cardinals fan. They may well vote Rolen in... but I think that he and Edmonds are just on the edge of not getting in. Seeing them on the field was nice, I was glad when a ball was hit anywhere near them, I was confident that they could play tight defense. But it wasn't quite like watching Ozzie at short. That was just about perfection. I saw Clemente and Mays play, and they could beat you with their gloves, their bats, their baserunning... Aaron was a great fielder, strong arm, he could fly like the wind out there in the outfield. I mention this because Ortiz didn't do that stuff. What's the next evolution, putting base coaches into the Hall for base coaching? And think who'll get in there for that, they'll start with a clean slate so no telling where they decide to set starting standards. Next they'll add pitching coaches, gotta have those.

I liked the Baines comment back there. And I'm sitting here shaking my head about Puckett getting in. And a few others. So maybe Ortiz and Rolen and Bonds and McGwire and the rest get in.

I'm not a Yankees fan, and I don't like the consequences (as I see them) from ARod getting the huge Texas contract that got players' salaries into a higher altitude orbit of outrageousness. I don't fault ARod, the owners did it to themselves and put paying the price of it, in the long run, on people going to ball games and people buying modern ball cards. (Those doing both take two hits on the burden.) MLB imposed a 1 year suspension on ARod, and he still had game for that year he missed. He had a great, HOF career, even after they took a year from him. 117 WAR, 3115 hits, 696 HRs. 17 players have a WAR rating above that. Ortiz' is about half that. ARod was a DH just under 300 games, about the number Ortiz was in the field. And ARod was in the field about 2400 games, about the number Ortiz was DHing.

ARod was a real ball player.

Peter_Spaeth · #12 01-24-2022, 10:25 PM

Frank, I think it's inevitable that once MLB said OK to the designated hitter, the best designated hitters are going to make the Hall, despite obvious holes in their resumes relative to how we traditionally have viewed a baseball player.

GaryPassamonte · #13 01-25-2022, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tabe

I will never understand voters who vote for Ortiz but not Bonds or Clemens or Rodriguez. Bonds and Clemens didn't even fail tests - Ortiz did*. Rodriguez did - and paid for it. Ortiz did and received no punishment.

Maybe if those three had given a profane speech and been historically awful defensively they, too, could get elected.

* - Ortiz and Rob Manfred have both confirmed he failed a test. It's not speculation, unlike anything surrounding Bonds and Clemens.

Agree 100%. It makes no sense that Ortiz gets a pass and other linked players don't. How can anyone vote for Ortiz and not Bonds or Clemens, who were infinitely better players. Like we used to say, "Ortiz couldn't carry their jocks."
It is absolutely hypocritical and inconsistent.

jingram058 · #14 01-25-2022, 04:56 PM

Ortiz gets in, I am okay with it. Okay with those other guys too. I could not care any less about steroids, or corked bats.

bbcard1 · #15 01-25-2022, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sycks22

Molitor and Rolen aren't in the same stadium. 3319 hits, .306 Avg, 504 sb for Molitor. Rolen had 2077 hits and 316 hrs in 17 seasons. Explain to me how those are similar players?

OTOH, although Molitor's plaque says third base, he spent more of his career as a DH. I am certainly not arguing Molitor is not legit as a HOFer as he certainly is, but I don't think he became a DH because he was an asset in the field.

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