S74-2 silks info needed

realbigfatdog · #1 01-24-2022, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobC

Here's a thought, rather than trying to get one Hal Chase of every possible silk color, remember that the S74-2 colored silks were issued for only two different ytobacco brands (Old Mill and Turkey Red), and all the silks were printed using only 3 different colors of ink (blue, brown, and what I call red/rust color). Why not try to find 3 different Old Mill colored silks of Chase, one printed in blue ink, one in brown, and the third in the red/rust ink color. And then do the same thing for three Turkey Red colored silks of chase. To jazz it up, you could try to get each of the six different Chase silks in a different material color then as well. Maybe one blue, one red, one pink, one purple, etc. This could be a little harder than you may think to get all the 3 different ink colors for both of the tobacco brands, but it at least limits you to only needing 6 silks to finish. I'd try to at least originally focus on the different ink colors and tobacco brands, and not worry too much about getting all different silk material colors. Something tells me you'll find some pretty easily, but then you may get stuck on a couple of the ink/tobacco brand combos. Whichever way you decide, it should make for a fun project. Good luck, and keep us posted on your progress.

Just wanted to post an update. I was able to land these two last night (after paying out the ass for them, ugh). Really happy to add them to my collection. My new question is this: does the S74-1 Chase come with a Red Sun or Helmar backing? There are none in the pop reports that I have found (I can't even figure out if PSA even grades these). Do any of you super advanced collectors have either of these in your collections? Or perhaps a blue ink version? I've never seen that one, either. Thanks for all of the great knowlege and help.

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Chris-Counts · #2 01-24-2022, 11:19 PM

These two pieces might help you identify some colors ...

BobC · #3 01-25-2022, 02:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Counts

These two pieces might help you identify some colors ...

Chris, Those are sweet! Are those supposed to be like pillow covers or something? I've actually got a similar kind of piece made up of various silks, along with two actual pillows made from various silks. I always thought it was so neat to collect some of these silks as they were intended to be used.

Chris-Counts · #4 01-25-2022, 08:30 PM

Bob, if they were made to be pillow cases, they were never completed. I found them as you see them and framed them up. I've seen many folk art silk baseball pieces over the years, but these two each had a lot of thought and work put into them when they were stitched together. They hang over my desk, so I look at them all day ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobC

Chris, Those are sweet! Are those supposed to be like pillow covers or something? I've actually got a similar kind of piece made up of various silks, along with two actual pillows made from various silks. I always thought it was so neat to collect some of these silks as they were intended to be used.

BobC · #5 01-25-2022, 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Counts

Bob, if they were made to be pillow cases, they were never completed. I found them as you see them and framed them up. I've seen many folk art silk baseball pieces over the years, but these two each had a lot of thought and work put into them when they were stitched together. They hang over my desk, so I look at them all day ...

Those are gorgeous, and not sure how many such items have survived and remained intact like those, that are still out there. I remember years ago people taking items like those apart to try selling the individual ballplayer silks for what they thought would be a lot more money. You still see S74 silks come up on Ebay and elsewhere occasionally that have the holes in them from the thread that was used to sew them onto something. And you often see similar stitch marks in BF2/Ferguson Bakery pennants as well. To me it's a shame they ruined all those folk art pieces, and the silks and pennants, by taking them all apart.

Silverskulls · #6 04-15-2023, 07:46 PM

Thanks everyone for sharing the great info in this thread. I�m pretty new to silks and found it really helpful, especially because the one that really sparked my interest is a Hal Chase that I recently picked up at a local card show.

Photos of the raw silk attached here.

Appears to be a 1911 S74-2 Hal Chase (Old Mill) in a blood red color with dark blue ink (the colored ones were all issued w/o paper backs). Thanks to N54 member Bob C for the intel on the three ink colors used.

After reviewing auction records, Google image, S74silk.com and Net54, I have not seen another Chase with this specific combination of red silk and dark blue (which also looks like black) ink. The blood red silk is not to be confused with the light pink silk that also exists (S74silk.com names them pink and red).

The closest I�ve seen is this (not my card) BVG slabbed Hal Chase in the same color silk but printed in red ink: https://www.flickr.com/photos/calvindog/4615845011/

S74silk.com has a Doolan with this red silk/blue ink combo: http://www.s74silk.com/coloredsilks/

Here�s a quilt with a Larry Doyle and John Hummel on red silk with blue ink: https://www.invaluable.com/v2/auctio...0-c-38f4573902

Has anyone else seen an S74 Hal Chase on red silk with blue ink? Or any other players?

Thanks in advance for any info!

Justin

PS, for anyone interested, there�s also this newer thread from 2023 about silks too:
https://www.net54baseball.com/showth...highlight=Silk

BobC · #7 04-15-2023, 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silverskulls

Thanks everyone for sharing the great info in this thread. I�m pretty new to silks and found it really helpful, especially because the one that really sparked my interest is a Hal Chase that I recently picked up at a local card show.

Photos of the raw silk attached here.

Appears to be a 1911 S74-2 Hal Chase (Old Mill) in a blood red color with black ink (the colored ones were all issued w/o paper backs).

After reviewing auction records, Google image, S74silk.com and Net54, I have not seen another Chase with this specific combination of red silk and black ink. The blood red silk is not to be confused with the light pink silk that also exists (S74silk.com names them pink and red).

The closest I�ve seen is this (not my card) BVG slabbed Hal Chase in the same color silk but printed in red ink: https://www.flickr.com/photos/calvindog/4615845011/

S74silk.com has a Doolan with this red silk/black ink combo: http://www.s74silk.com/coloredsilks/

Here�s a quilt with a Larry Doyle and John Hummel on red silk with black ink: https://www.invaluable.com/v2/auctio...0-c-38f4573902

Has anyone else seen an S74 Hal Chase on red silk with black ink? Or any other players?

Thanks in advance for any info!

Justin

PS, for anyone interested, there�s also this newer thread from 2023 about silks too:
https://www.net54baseball.com/showth...highlight=Silk

Hey Justin,

Great Chase silk. The deep red colored S74-2s are one of the rarer material colors to find. Yours has a bit of fading it looks like, which isn't all that unusual as they are over 100 years old. But the image is NOT printed with black ink, it just looks like black ink because it was originally printed on a dark red material. As previously mentioned, they only used three different ink colors for the images on both the S74-1 white silks, and the S74-2 colored version silks: blue, brown and a red/rust color. My guess is yours may have been the blue ink version, which when printed on the dark red material makes it look black. And the fading probably didn't help as it likely took out some of the shine/luster of the blue ink, and left the duller, blackish looking color behind.

When the brown or red/rust color inks were used on these dark red colored material silks, it was often kind of tough to actually make out the player's images and the tobacco brand names on them. Maybe a reason why you don't see the dark red material silks that often, as the manufacturers quickly realized they didn't always present the images and writing very well. And since they made these to be used in sewing and creating things for around the house, that would have been a possible turn off for the ladies using them in their sewing projects, and thus causing the manufacturers to not use the dark red material that much.

BobC · #8 04-15-2023, 09:16 PM

When you do come across a dark red colored material S74-2 silk that has escaped fading, the dark red really sticks out and pretty much overshadows whatever color ink was used.

Again, nice Chase silk. You do have the very typical fraying at the top and bottom, but the tobacco brand name and factory designation are both clear and complete, with no fraying to either of them, which is what you want to see. Also, you can still see some of the darker colored red silk material at the very top and very bottom of the silks that shows where they had applied whatever it was to help stop the fraying when the silk was originally cut. Whenever you are looking for the colored S74-2 version silks, you want to see as little (to no) fraying as possible, and these darker material stripes across the very top and bottom as fully intact as possible.

BobC · #9 01-25-2022, 01:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by realbigfatdog

Just wanted to post an update. I was able to land these two last night (after paying out the ass for them, ugh). Really happy to add them to my collection. My new question is this: does the S74-1 Chase come with a Red Sun or Helmar backing? There are none in the pop reports that I have found (I can't even figure out if PSA even grades these). Do any of you super advanced collectors have either of these in your collections? Or perhaps a blue ink version? I've never seen that one, either. Thanks for all of the great knowlege and help.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

LOL

First off, great pick-ups. I was watching that lot in REA's auction that ended Sunday night, and was very surprised it went for what it did. The S74-1 Chase silk was the only one of the four white silks in that lot that had the advertising back still attached. And of the six S74-2 colored version silks in the lot, four of them, including the blue material Chase silk, are in pretty nice shape with very little, if any, fraying at the tops and bottoms of the silks. The Knight and Wolter colored silks are a different story though, with both showing significant fraying on the tops and bottoms, especially the red Wolter silk. It almost looks like someone was trying to tear off the top of that Wolter silk. So you got five really nice silks, and unfortunately five not so nice, and no HOFs. Personally, I thought that lot went for at least twice what it was worth, especially after adding in the buyers premium. Still a few nice silks to be able to grab.

The way some people are pricing S74 silks they throw up on Ebay, you may not be overpaying that much after all. Have always felt these silks are underappreciated and undervalued. Maybe that is starting to finally change though.

To directly answer your specific question, there theoretically should be Red Sun and Helmar ad-backed S74-1 white silks of Chase. Now did any of them survive till today with the advertising backs still attached, that's an entirely different story. I don't think most mainstream card collectors, especially those into the contemporary T205 and T206 sets, truly appreciate how tough it is to find S74 silks in really nice shape, and how truly hard it is to find them with with advertising backs still attached to the S74-1 silks. Turkey Red and Old Mill are the most common brands these silks were distributed with. But when it comes to Red Sun and Helmar backed S74-1 white silks, you're talking uber-rare and then literally impossible, respectively. Both brands were mainly distributed in the South, in like the Louisiana area, where heat and humidity must have reeked havoc on the cardboard backings attached to the white version silks. Don't forget, those backings were supposed to be removed, so they weren't that strongly attached to begin with.

If you want a comparable way to think of how rare Red Sun and Helmar backed silks are, think of Red Sun backed S74-1 silks maybe being on par as far as rarity with Broadleaf or Lenox brand T206s backs. As for Helmar backed silks, you're talking brown Old Mill Southern Leaguer T206 back rarity, and possibly even worse. I've heard anecdotally that only about 10 or so Helmar backed silks are even known to exist, period. I personally know of two Helmar backed Cobbs included in that surviving group, but not what players make up the other eight or so surviving Helmar silks. I would venture to say it is most likely there are no surviving Helmar backed silks of Chase, and if there are any Red Sun backed silks of him, there's maybe a couple out there at most, but I've never seen or heard of silks with either one of those backs existing for him.

And as far as looking at pop reports to get an idea of what's out there, they don't work for S74-1 silks like they do most other card issues. To answer another of your questions, PSA does not grade the S74 silks at all. I've seen a very few graded by BVG, and remember seeing some graded by GAI back when they were still around. But SGC is by far the main TPG when it comes to grading any S74 silks. But, SGC only gives numerical grades to S74-1 silks that still have the backing attached. Any white version silks without the backing get an automatic "A" grade from SGC, that is it. And so you know, most serious S74 silk collectors don't really care about grading silks, so the existing TPG pop reports aren't necessarily going to be truly representative of what's out there. Unlike cards, where you didn't want to buy a fake online, you don't really need a TPG's opinion to tell if an S74 silk is real or not. It would be pretty nigh impossible to fake one, and definitely not cost effective for someone to try. About the only thing you may want to watch out for is if someone tries to re-attach a back, or maybe take one off a common player's silk and then tries attaching it to an unbacked HOFer's silk. Any attempts I've ever seen look pretty obvious though because the backing never perfectly matches the silk itself in those cases.

And then there's the added issue that TPGs try to grade the silks like cards, which makes no sense at all. TPG numerical grades on S74 silks can be, and generally are, all over the the place, and to me, and other advanced silk collectors, such grades are practically worthless. This is borne out when you do look at the SGC pop reports for S74-1 silks. They show a total of only 23 Red Sun backed silks ever being graded, with no individual player having more than two graded examples. There are going to be more Red Sun backed silks sitting out there in private collections, just no one truly knows how many. And remember me saying there's supposedly only around ten or so Helmar backed silks still in existence? Well the SGC pop reports show only one Helmar backed silk has ever been graded, and it is of Cobb. If you go back to that S74silk.com site someone earlier posted a link to, and go to the site page for S74-1 white silks, you'll find a front and back image of that SGC graded Helmar-Cobb. The slab was cropped out.

On that same page you'll also see an example of what the Red Sun back looks like, as well as the Old Mill and Turkey Red backs. And please note there are two versions of the Turkey Red backs, one with a frame/border, and another without. The SGC pop reports show a total of eight Chase S74-1 silks with Turkey Red backs have been graded, but they don't tell you how many are with or without the frame/border. I believe you should be able to find both versions of the Turkey Red backs for Chase, but no idea how easy that may be.

As for your last question about finding an S74-1 Chase silk printed with blue ink, I don't believe one exists, regardless of what tobacco brand is on the back. There's something like 17 or so players in the S74-1 white version silk set that appear to never have had any silks printed using the blue ink at all, at least not that have the advertising backs still attached. and that includes Chase. In my earlier post I suggested you go after Chase silks in each of the three different ink colors, for each tobacco brand. But that was only in reference to the S74-2 colored version silks. That won't be possible for the S74-1 white version silks as I already noted some players appear to have not had white silks printed with certain ink colors at all, or certain ink colors might have not been printed for some players for just a particular tobacco brand(s).

Trying to do an S74-1 white silk back run for a single player is pretty near impossible. The only player that I'm actually certain this could be done for is Cobb. Don't know of any other player in the S74-1 set I can guarantee has an existing Red Sun and Helmar backed silk, as well as a Turkey Red backed silk with the border/frame. But even for Cobb, if only a couple Helmar or Red Sun backed silks exist, you aren't going to be able to have one of each of the three ink colors the silks were printed in. Sorry to maybe give you some bad news regarding a master set/back run for S74-1 Chase silks, but figured it best to let you know what you realistically could do up front. Good luck.

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