Grading Guarantees - Are They For Real???

1880nonsports · #1 07-25-2022, 11:39 PM

I had an N43 base ball card with 2/3 obvious flaws that was over-graded by two grades. I gave it to Joe at a national. He went behind the curtain and returned 10 minutes later saying his head grader "confirmed" the grade. Yup. I surmise it won't happen often if at all. Maybe the "big submitters" and "big hitters" but justice with a blind eye for you and I - er um ah no.

jfkheat · #2 07-25-2022, 11:57 PM

A few years ago I bought a 1970 Topps card that was graded PSA 9. The card was shown to have been trimmed on the Blowout forum. It was sent to PSA for review and they agreed. They sent me a check for $400 to cover what I paid for the card.

swarmee · #3 07-26-2022, 01:59 PM

Yeah, when it's not egregious, they likely just "re-affirm" the grade. But when it's determined to be trimmed with solid photographic evidence, they sometimes will. I'm guessing they also did it with the two Clemente or Mays cards that were PSA 7s with pinholes that weren't seen by their grader.

There are times where they claim that the original grade was entered in error, and then don't pay out. This happened last year with the 70/30 off-centered Montana RCs they just graded as 10s. They just recalled them and re-slabbed them as 6s or so. If it's a mechanical error, it doesn't fall under the grade guarantee. But only they know if it truly was an error or the original grade assigned.

glchen · #4 07-26-2022, 03:43 PM

In my experience, the grading guarantees are for real. I've purchased a card that SGC graded a 3 (VG). In the auction, the back scan wasn't clear, and when I received it, there was scrapbook residue on back. I sent it back to SGC, and it came back at 1.5 (Fair). SGC refunded me with a check and some grading credits which I thought was very fair, and I was very satisfied with.

For Beckett, they holdered a photo that was determined to be counterfeit. They sent me a check to fully compensate me for this. Again, I thought they were very fair and i was very satisfied with the final settlement.

I haven't tried PSA before, so no experience there.

Carter08 · #5 07-26-2022, 04:22 PM

I�m not perfectly on topic here but it�s related. I have a friend that has a small but nice collection. He sent in a card 49 bowman he thought was mint and paid the psa premium of 2k for services on a card with a declared value under 49k. Card came back a psa 2, probably justified. Psa won�t issue a refund of any of the expenses or even meet him halfway and drop the price to 1k for cards with a declared value under 29k. It seems tough that psa would make you declare a value and be bound to it when their grading is what helps dictate the value so to speak. At any rate, would like to help this vent out if anyone has any experience on this. Psa customer service at least one time said no dice.

oldjudge · #6 07-26-2022, 04:50 PM

My sense it is very similar to the guarantee �If you are unhappy send back the unused portion of our product and we will send back the unused portion of your money�.

BobC · #7 07-26-2022, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carter08

I�m not perfectly on topic here but it�s related. I have a friend that has a small but nice collection. He sent in a card 49 bowman he thought was mint and paid the psa premium of 2k for services on a card with a declared value under 49k. Card came back a psa 2, probably justified. Psa won�t issue a refund of any of the expenses or even meet him halfway and drop the price to 1k for cards with a declared value under 29k. It seems tough that psa would make you declare a value and be bound to it when their grading is what helps dictate the value so to speak. At any rate, would like to help this vent out if anyone has any experience on this. Psa customer service at least one time said no dice.

And this exactly one of the biggest problems and issues all along with TPGs and their opinions. They are NOT independent in the giving of their opinions on the grade of cards. There should be absolutely NO DIFFERENCE in the grading standards and way a '52 Topps Mantle card is examined and graded, and the way an '89 Topps Gregg Jefferies rookie card is examined and graded. So why should there be any difference in the grading fees?????

Any TPG charging such varying and graduated fees is automatically biased, and subject to a conflict-of -interest in their grading services. And this IS NOT DEBATABLE, IT IS A FACT!!!!! Any person/party/company being trusted and hired for their giving of an "opinion" should be totally independent, in both fact, AND appearance. All TPGs should follow a single and accepted set of grading standards, set by a majority of people in the hobby and not independently by each TPG to suit their own whims, that are unchanging and consistently applied, and further supported by total transparency as to why a card is graded as it is. And all the TPGs should be subject to ongoing peer review of their work by outside parties, with consequences for failing to accurately, and without bias and conflict-of-interest, do what they get paid to do. Give accurate, honest, and unbiased opinions on the grade of cards.

So how can anyone trust the "opinion" given by any person/party/company as to a card's grade that is not totally independent, unbiased, and without an obvious conflict-of-interest? The very simple and accurate answer is.........you actually can't!!!!!

jchcollins · #8 07-26-2022, 11:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobC

So why should there be any difference in the grading fees?????

If there were no difference in the grading fees, then PSA and SGC would be inundated with thousands of fake T206 Wagners, Cobbs, Goudey Ruths, and '52 Mantles on a weekly basis and would waste countless hours labeling such cards "? Auth" and sending them back to people who said "Well, they told me I should have it graded" or scam artists hoping for a slim chance a grader would make a huge mistake.

As for the rest - yes, grading companies are biased, use subjectivity in judgement, and make many decisions on a daily basis which smack with conflict of interest or other questionable integrity issues. But we have paid them well for doing that for a generation at least now. The hobby was not perfect before grading, and despite the numerous hobby "ills" that grading was ostensibly designed to solve - it's certainly not perfect with them in the picture now. Cost of doing business. "Buy the card not the grade" people have already moved on in most cases, IMO.

BobC · #9 07-26-2022, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by swarmee

Yeah, when it's not egregious, they likely just "re-affirm" the grade. But when it's determined to be trimmed with solid photographic evidence, they sometimes will. I'm guessing they also did it with the two Clemente or Mays cards that were PSA 7s with pinholes that weren't seen by their grader.

There are times where they claim that the original grade was entered in error, and then don't pay out. This happened last year with the 70/30 off-centered Montana RCs they just graded as 10s. They just recalled them and re-slabbed them as 6s or so. If it's a mechanical error, it doesn't fall under the grade guarantee. But only they know if it truly was an error or the original grade assigned.

Whether the error is due to a mistake by a grader or a "mechanical" error, either way it still seems to me that it is an error by the grading company. What if someone had sold one of those "10"s to someone? Could/should a TPG have been able to blow off paying out a grade guarantee in that case? I would certainly hope not.

It sounds like in your case the TPG realized the error, and contacted the submitters to quickly correct the situation, correct? In that instance, I can see a TPG not paying anything to a submitter as they noted their mistake and corrected it. I would hope that if a "10" grade as opposed to a "6" grade resulted in a higher grading fee that the difference was returned to the submitter though. Otherwise, the person who submitted the card is really out nothing.

But as I said, if a card was sold to someone else that paid a price based on the grade given, mechanical error or not, the person that then owned the card should be fully entitled to a refund of the difference in value between a "10" and a "6", wouldn't you agree?

Quite frankly, if that did happen, I'm surprised that someone being informed by a TPG of such an error would not have gotten a friend or colleague to "buy" the card from them for a "10" price, and then direct the TPG to the new owner to deal with the error. Would love to hear what a TPG would say to the new owner in that case.

Leon · #10 07-27-2022, 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by swarmee

Yeah, when it's not egregious, they likely just "re-affirm" the grade. But when it's determined to be trimmed with solid photographic evidence, they sometimes will. I'm guessing they also did it with the two Clemente or Mays cards that were PSA 7s with pinholes that weren't seen by their grader.

There are times where they claim that the original grade was entered in error, and then don't pay out. This happened last year with the 70/30 off-centered Montana RCs they just graded as 10s. They just recalled them and re-slabbed them as 6s or so. If it's a mechanical error, it doesn't fall under the grade guarantee. But only they know if it truly was an error or the original grade assigned.

To me, if it was an error on the flip, it's an error anyway you slice it.
.

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