So who was better ( Kaline or Clemente) ?

[packs]

I never saw Clemente play but my dad's always described him as a kind of elite intangible player. He just did good things on the diamond that you had to see to know what they were.

In my lifetime, I think a player like Vlad might be a similar comparison. Vlad's career may not scream HOF or all time presence on the diamond, but when I saw him play I felt like he was the best player on the field.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by packs

I never saw Clemente play but my dad's always described him as a kind of elite intangible player. He just did good things on the diamond that you had to see to know what they were.

In my lifetime, I think a player like Vlad might be a similar comparison. Vlad's career may not scream HOF or all time presence on the diamond, but when I saw him play I felt like he was the best player on the field.

I remember reading a fascinating column years ago about which players had "duende" (a Spanish word but the discussion was not at all specific to Latin players) and which did not. No doubt Roberto had it. I suppose one could endlessly discuss whether it's important or not.

[packs]

I have a friend who's really into hockey and he says Gretzky was the same way. I know in Gretzky's case the intangibles show up in stats like goals and assists. But the point my friend likes to make about Gretzky is that he wasn't a physically gifted person. He was not fast. He was not big. He had nothing the other elite players did. What made him great was his ability to know what was going to happen before it did and to be in the right place at the right time, or be able to put the puck in the right place at the right time. But he always says nothing about Gretzky's body made him a good hockey player. There was something else there that other people don't have.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by packs

I have a friend who's really into hockey and he says Gretzky was the same way. I know in Gretzky's case the intangibles show up in stats like goals and assists. But the point my friend likes to make about Gretzky is that he wasn't a physically gifted person. He was not fast. He was not big. He had nothing the other elite players did. What made him great was his ability to know what was going to happen before it did and to be in the right place at the right time, or be able to put the puck in the right place at the right time. But he always says nothing about Gretzky's body made him a good hockey player. There was something else there that other people don't have.

I think Bird is somewhat the same, what distinguished him was uncanny court sense and vision.