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I was always wondering how to compare these outfielders, because I could never figure out who the hell was better: (not listed in any particular order)
Frank Robinson Roberto Clemente Al Kaline Carl Yastrzemski Lou Brock Hank Aaron How much better was Aaron than Frank ? How much better was Frank than Kaline or Clemente ? Last edited by Jewish-collector; 09-15-2022 at 08:27 PM. |
#2
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__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
#3
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Brock WAY behind the others. Yaz well ahead of Brock but still behind the ATG's
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Check out https://www.thecollectorconnection.com Always looking for consignments 717.327.8915 We sell your less expensive pre-war cards individually instead of in bulk lots to make YOU the most money possible! and Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thecollectorconnectionauctions |
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Does anyone know if Clemente ever commented on when he would retire? He was certainly going strong in his later years, way more than Kaline was. He only played 102 games in 1972. Was he becoming injury prone?
It certainly appears from his stats that Clemente could have easily played another 4 or 5 years, which would have put him at about 5th all-time in hits upon retirement in, say, 1977. Those extra years would have caught him up to Kaline in plate appearances, and at that point would have likely put him at over 500 doubles and 3400 hits. |
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Hear it in his own words: http://vendiamo.com/Miley/Clemente.wav As we know, he died with exactly 3,000 base hits. |
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Maybe an alternate take on things but I actually think Clemente's death hurt his overall collectability more than it enhanced it. Had Clemente lived, he would have seen the landscape of baseball change completely. Hispanic players are now a dominant force in Major League Baseball, particularly players from Puerto Rico and other surrounding islands.
It's my opinion and speculative (obviously) but I believe if Clemente had lived, his influence on today's game would be felt more and he would be closer to the make up of the league than he ended up being as a tragic hero. I think he would be a Jackie Robinson-like figure if he had lived a full life and had enough time to comment on his experiences as the pioneer he was. |
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It is weird to think of certain players not having died young. Ruth easily could have lived well into the 1970s, and Gehrig well into the 1980s, for example. I mean, imagine Ruth being in the press box commenting on the 1975 WS, or Gehrig on the 1986 WS?
Was Clemente a guy who would have stayed involved with baseball, or would he have gone back home and lived an insular life?
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My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 09-16-2022 at 01:29 PM. |
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It truly is a shame. So many of the hurdles have been removed that a guy like Clemente, had he lived, would have really been able to tell his story. The language barrier is almost non-existent now. Spanish is a colloquial language in America today and has been for quite a while.
He would have been far less of an enigma had he lived another few decades. Not just because he would been alive, but also because the landscape of America has changed so much. Last edited by packs; 09-16-2022 at 01:36 PM. |
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IMO Hank was a higher level than the others, Brock a lower level than the others. I would rank them this way: Aaron Clemente F.Robinson Yastrzemski Kaline Brock .
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. "A life is not important except in the impact it has on others lives" - Jackie Robinson “If you have a chance to make life better for others and fail to do so, you are wasting your time on this earth.”- Roberto Clemente |
#11
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Clemente stats of the day: 16 HR/162 games. Only 41 BB/162 games, with an OBP of only .359 despite the high BA. Joe Morgan's OBP, for example, was 33 points higher than Clemente's. I think this is where he suffers a bit in some of the analyses.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 09-16-2022 at 08:54 AM. |
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I never saw Clemente play but my dad's always described him as a kind of elite intangible player. He just did good things on the diamond that you had to see to know what they were.
In my lifetime, I think a player like Vlad might be a similar comparison. Vlad's career may not scream HOF or all time presence on the diamond, but when I saw him play I felt like he was the best player on the field. |
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__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
#14
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I have a friend who's really into hockey and he says Gretzky was the same way. I know in Gretzky's case the intangibles show up in stats like goals and assists. But the point my friend likes to make about Gretzky is that he wasn't a physically gifted person. He was not fast. He was not big. He had nothing the other elite players did. What made him great was his ability to know what was going to happen before it did and to be in the right place at the right time, or be able to put the puck in the right place at the right time. But he always says nothing about Gretzky's body made him a good hockey player. There was something else there that other people don't have.
Last edited by packs; 09-16-2022 at 09:25 AM. |
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__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
#16
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Clemente Aaron Robinson Yaz Kaline Brock |
#17
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Roberto vs Al
Rats60- great stuff. Again, both players wonderful, either could play on my
team any day. I'll take Roberto though G1911- I understand your mantra: 1) You are always correct 2) You refuse to acknowledge, let alone consider, data which contradicts you 3) Any questions? See rule 1. Finally, I'm not "unhinged" in the least. I'm just amazed and amused by mouth breathers who make absurd comments, and genuinely believe they shouldn't be gainsaid. Stay in the bubble, it's a good place for you... Now then, there's English Premier League today, college ball, and this "little" REA ending tomorrow. I also pick up some great cards at the Post Office today. The good clearly outweighs the bad/idiotic! Trent King |
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Again, only you have made an appeal to authority. Nobody else has. You have not provided “ data” or ,add a reasonable case, you have thrown a tantrum. You just attacked another poster who never even got into it with you but just picked Kaline. You remain too stupid to even know what key terms and the quote button is, while trying to speak of logic, with which you are clearly not familiar. Learn to read, then calm yourself down, and reply to ideas with a reasonable counter argument and it will go ever better than this nutball crazy shit like last nights infuriated rant. |
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You and I have had this discussion before of course, but.... WAR Aaron 143 Clemente 94.8 HR Aaron 755 Clemente 240 SLG Aaron .555 Clemente .475 OPS Aaron .928 Clemente .834 To me there is no sound argument to take Clemente over Aaron, and I do understand the Forbes Field, Atlanta stadium, and premature career ending points, they might IMO make the gap a little closer but not that much.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
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#21
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Roberto or Al?
G1911- a couple points:
1) I happen to believe Hank Aaron is the most devastating offensive force in the past 70ish years of baseball. My 3 favorite players are Roberto, Hank, and Rod Carew. 2) Your memory is selective (is it alright to say that since you are infallible? Did I cross some line that challenges your deity-like status? Gosh, I hope not). I have provided data and other commenters have provided data, making repetition of it unnecessary. The data points ARE there, for both players. Some choose Roberto and others choose Al. YOU went off the reservation with the "overrated" talk. It was off topic, unnecessary, and provocative- and wrong. I called you on it, which makes you angry because you've already established that you are never wrong. You are the nicest guy in the world so long as you make the rules and refuse to be challenged, right? 3) Much earlier in this thread, you made some numbnuts remark about not acknowledging outside "player ratings" systems. I'm sure it's coincidental that those systems related Roberto (and Al) very highly... 4) For someone who claims to dislike verbal "attacks" and "rants", you are VERY fond of "attacking" and "ranting". Is this part of the "do as I say, not as I do" mentality that is part of your godhood? Asking for a friend (Actually, I'm not- don't answer). 5) You are a tiresome blowhard who perfectly fits the image of a person who I'd love to buy for what he is truly worth, then sell for what you THINK you are worth. Your act is a played out clown show, too much good in this day for the likes of you. Carry on, Trent King |
#22
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You realize there is a transcript of what has actually been said, in order, right? 1) - Irrelevant 2) - You haven't called me on anything I've actually said, you've refused to read and screeched. The one specific thing you've tried to call is factually wrong; "great" and "overrated" are not "circular", only you are too stupid to not know this. 3) - This is a complete lie, I did not make any comment to that meaning. Are you genuinely illiterate? Again, there is a public transcript. 4) - Again, I did not say that. I said you attacked another poster who has not even engaged with you, which you very clearly did when you called CampyFan a crack addict, insane, and a fake account for also picking Kaline. There is a transcript. Post 92. Learn to read. You have insulted me about 5 times as much, which is fine, but you have no moral ground here. 5) - Cool. Adjust your dosage, and get back to reality. I'm sorry you cannot debate on any reasonable grounds and just screech for your pick. Taking me out of it, you have been nothing but an abusive jackass to people who have not even engaged with you if they pick Kaline. Calm yourself. |
#23
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And yet another thread has been lost to bickering
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#24
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Absurd, nutball crazy, unhinged, fanboys, etc. You take these arguments to an extreme.
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