So who was better ( Kaline or Clemente) ?

[ClementeFanOh]

To G1911-

Your entire reply to my comment is circular. How can a "great" player be
overrated? Ummm..he can't. And his "actual production" is a large part of
his HOF status- FOUR National League Batting Titles, .317 lifetime average,
defensive prowess, on and on (even the "trivia" about that little thing
called excellence in the World Series). When a player is being ranked by
various entities as somewhere between the 35th and 70th best players of
all time(!), out of a 5 figure pool of players, his "actual production"
MUST be incredible- we aren't discussing E sports heroes here.The renown
and reputation are just icing on a magnificent cake. Nice try, but you're
cornered by your own post. A player simply cannot be "great" with HOF
numbers, and somehow be "overrated". Trent King

PS- And Al Kaline was a bad man as well, no doubt.

[ClementeFanOh]

Almost forgot Mark17- I'm with you all the way! Trent King

[G1911]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

To G1911-

Your entire reply to my comment is circular. How can a "great" player be
overrated? Ummm..he can't.

This is false. It appears you are looking for "contradictory" (that claims are in complete discord) more than "circular" (that the argument leads into itself), which would be the case if I said "great" and "not great". A player can obviously be great, and overrated. There are levels to it. Babe Ruth is great, Frank Thomas is great. That does not make them the same, it does not mean that a player cannot be under or over rated. Everyone in the top 100 is great; they are not the same.

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

And his "actual production" is a large part of
his HOF status- FOUR National League Batting Titles, .317 lifetime average,
defensive prowess, on and on (even the "trivia" about that little thing
called excellence in the World Series).

Obviously. That's why I called him great.

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

When a player is being ranked by
various entities as somewhere between the 35th and 70th best players of
all time(!), out of a 5 figure pool of players, his "actual production"
MUST be incredible

For the "actual production", yes. That's why I said he was great. Obviously. I do not subscribe to appeals to authority, something is not true or false because an authority says so. Otherwise, we would just take 1 of these rankings and nobody could disagree with it. This fallacy is not compelling.

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

- we aren't discussing E sports heroes here.

What are you even talking about?

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

The renown and reputation are just icing on a magnificent cake. Nice try, but you're
cornered by your own post. A player simply cannot be "great" with HOF
numbers, and somehow be "overrated". Trent King

You are surely capable of being aware that this is not true. A player can be great and overrated. Like Jeter. Like Ryan. Like Clemente. His level of fame is not in acclaim with the math. It doesn't mean he wasn't a great player, but he's not at the very tip top as his popularity would suggest.

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

PS- And Al Kaline was a bad man as well, no doubt.

What are you even talking about?



People really need to grow up and stop getting upset and making absurd claims anytime they encounter an opinion that does not worship their idol. I love Gaylord Perry, he's probably my favorite of the 60's. That doesn't mean I have to overrate him and pretend he was the best in a matchup with another. That I like him doesn't stop me from being cognizant of the math and reality. I am confident others are capable of this simplistic realization.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Of course a great player can be overrated. I am not arguing Clemente is, just pointing out some have made that claim. If the objective evidence points to a player ranking (hypothetically) 50-60, yet public perception is 20-30, that great player is clearly overrated by many. I don't see any circular argument here. And yeah, I don't get the emotional defense either, nobody is insulting Roberto for god's sake, we're just trying to look at his career objectively and to contextualize it.

[ClementeFanOh]

G1911- since you brought up the word “simplistic” and the notion of acting grown up, I’ll point out that you’ve provided your own shovel and dug the hole you are standing in. You’ve also (figuratively) provided a mirror to gaze into, when making snide comments about other people needing to grow up…people like you work hard to make distinctions without differences, parse words, and otherwise strain like mad to extricate themselves from foolish comments they made in a silly effort to appear erudite. In short, there’s a fair chance you’re not as clever as you believe you are. (By the way, the “E sports” comment was about gamers. You know, guys who are great at Madden but can’t actually throw a football. It meant that your commentary was an exercise in mental self gratification rather than legitimate reasoning. I’m stunned someone of your brilliance missed the reference). Trent King

[Jewish-collector]

I was always wondering how to compare these outfielders, because I could never figure out who the hell was better: (not listed in any particular order)

Frank Robinson
Roberto Clemente
Al Kaline
Carl Yastrzemski
Lou Brock
Hank Aaron

How much better was Aaron than Frank ? How much better was Frank than Kaline or Clemente ?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Jewish-collector

I was always wondering how to compare these outfielders, because I could never figure out who the hell was better: (not listed in any particular order)

Frank Robinson
Roberto Clemente
Al Kaline
Carl Yastrzemski
Lou Brock
Hank Aaron

How much better was Aaron than Frank ? How much better was Frank than Kaline or Clemente ?

I think Brock and then Yaz bring up the rear there. I would rank Aaron very comfortably in first but no question Frank Robinson was a very great player, I would call him a tier ahead of Clemente and Kaline.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I think Brock and then Yaz bring up the rear there. I would rank Aaron very comfortably in first but no question Frank Robinson was a very great player, I would call him a tier ahead of Clemente and Kaline.

Brock WAY behind the others. Yaz well ahead of Brock but still behind the ATG's

[Kzoo]

Originally Posted by Jewish-collector

I was always wondering how to compare these outfielders, because I could never figure out who the hell was better: (not listed in any particular order)

Frank Robinson
Roberto Clemente
Al Kaline
Carl Yastrzemski
Lou Brock
Hank Aaron

How much better was Aaron than Frank ? How much better was Frank than Kaline or Clemente ?

Imagine if any of these guys played for the Yankees their entire careers... Robinson and Kaline would be looked at quite differently by collectors, for sure. And Aaron breaking the HR record of a former Yankee legend? It would've been nuts. Kind of fun to envision.

[SAllen2556]

Does anyone know if Clemente ever commented on when he would retire? He was certainly going strong in his later years, way more than Kaline was. He only played 102 games in 1972. Was he becoming injury prone?

It certainly appears from his stats that Clemente could have easily played another 4 or 5 years, which would have put him at about 5th all-time in hits upon retirement in, say, 1977.

Those extra years would have caught him up to Kaline in plate appearances, and at that point would have likely put him at over 500 doubles and 3400 hits.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by SAllen2556

Does anyone know if Clemente ever commented on when he would retire?

Yes, and it will send shivers up your spine. He said, in June of 1970, that he wanted to play until he got 3,000 hits.

Hear it in his own words:

http://vendiamo.com/Miley/Clemente.wav

As we know, he died with exactly 3,000 base hits.

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by Jewish-collector

I was always wondering how to compare these outfielders, because I could never figure out who the hell was better: (not listed in any particular order)

Frank Robinson
Roberto Clemente
Al Kaline
Carl Yastrzemski
Lou Brock
Hank Aaron

How much better was Aaron than Frank ? How much better was Frank than Kaline or Clemente ?

IMO

Hank was a higher level than the others, Brock a lower level than the others.

I would rank them this way:

Aaron


Clemente
F.Robinson
Yastrzemski

Kaline


Brock


.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Clemente stats of the day: 16 HR/162 games. Only 41 BB/162 games, with an OBP of only .359 despite the high BA. Joe Morgan's OBP, for example, was 33 points higher than Clemente's. I think this is where he suffers a bit in some of the analyses.

[packs]

I never saw Clemente play but my dad's always described him as a kind of elite intangible player. He just did good things on the diamond that you had to see to know what they were.

In my lifetime, I think a player like Vlad might be a similar comparison. Vlad's career may not scream HOF or all time presence on the diamond, but when I saw him play I felt like he was the best player on the field.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Jewish-collector

I was always wondering how to compare these outfielders, because I could never figure out who the hell was better: (not listed in any particular order)

Frank Robinson
Roberto Clemente
Al Kaline
Carl Yastrzemski
Lou Brock
Hank Aaron

How much better was Aaron than Frank ? How much better was Frank than Kaline or Clemente ?

Clemente
Aaron




Robinson
Yaz
Kaline




Brock

[ClementeFanOh]

Rats60- great stuff. Again, both players wonderful, either could play on my
team any day. I'll take Roberto though

G1911- I understand your mantra:

1) You are always correct
2) You refuse to acknowledge, let alone consider, data which contradicts you
3) Any questions? See rule 1.

Finally, I'm not "unhinged" in the least. I'm just amazed and amused by
mouth breathers who make absurd comments, and genuinely believe they
shouldn't be gainsaid. Stay in the bubble, it's a good place for you...

Now then, there's English Premier League today, college ball, and this "little"
REA ending tomorrow. I also pick up some great cards at the Post Office
today. The good clearly outweighs the bad/idiotic! Trent King

[G1911]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

Rats60- great stuff. Again, both players wonderful, either could play on my
team any day. I'll take Roberto though

G1911- I understand your mantra:

1) You are always correct
2) You refuse to acknowledge, let alone consider, data which contradicts you
3) Any questions? See rule 1.

Finally, I'm not "unhinged" in the least. I'm just amazed and amused by
mouth breathers who make absurd comments, and genuinely believe they
shouldn't be gainsaid. Stay in the bubble, it's a good place for you...

Now then, there's English Premier League today, college ball, and this "little"
REA ending tomorrow. I also pick up some great cards at the Post Office
today. The good clearly outweighs the bad/idiotic! Trent King

Again, only you have made an appeal to authority. Nobody else has. You have not provided “ data” or ,add a reasonable case, you have thrown a tantrum. You just attacked another poster who never even got into it with you but just picked Kaline. You remain too stupid to even know what key terms and the quote button is, while trying to speak of logic, with which you are clearly not familiar. Learn to read, then calm yourself down, and reply to ideas with a reasonable counter argument and it will go ever better than this nutball crazy shit like last nights infuriated rant.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by rats60

Clemente
Aaron




Robinson
Yaz
Kaline




Brock

You and I have had this discussion before of course, but....

WAR
Aaron 143
Clemente 94.8

HR
Aaron 755
Clemente 240

SLG

Aaron .555
Clemente .475

OPS
Aaron .928
Clemente .834

To me there is no sound argument to take Clemente over Aaron, and I do understand the Forbes Field, Atlanta stadium, and premature career ending points, they might IMO make the gap a little closer but not that much.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

You and I have had this discussion before of course, but....

WAR
Aaron 143
Clemente 94.8

HR
Aaron 755
Clemente 240

SLG

Aaron .555
Clemente .475

OPS
Aaron .928
Clemente .834

To me there is no sound argument to take Clemente over Aaron, and I do understand the Forbes Field, Atlanta stadium, and premature career ending points, they might IMO make the gap a little closer but not that much.

This shouldn’t even need to be said. One may like Clemente more, but to assert he is better is so far off from reality that it’s just absurd. The fanboys in this thread…

[ClementeFanOh]

Peter Spaeth- I must point out, a bit tongue in cheek, that your defense of
G1911 is essentially a point in my favor. A couple pesky facts:

1) The original post was "Clemente vs Kaline", a compelling question.
G1911 went the "overrated" route, which was NOT the debate. I'm sure
one of you will provide superficial circumlocution to explain it away, of
course. The fact remains HE strayed, and I corrected him.

2) You won't get away with explaining away my reaction as "emotional". I
don't have a nurse handy, so I guess you'll have to decide whether to
believe me when I say my blood pressure hasn't risen one point during
this ridiculous exchange. For Roberto (and Al), the stats and facts speak
for themselves. Their career achievements are stupendous by any
measure.

And one observation:

I've noticed a cadre of folks on this site who really lack perspective on
player "greatness". If the rest of us mere mortals accepted their divine
logic, I'm fairly certain only Babe Ruth would be "rated" properly. Shleps
like Aaron and Mays should just be forgotten, they aren't number one.
Nolan Ryan? His trillion strikeouts and 7 no-nos are trifles, he isn't
actually "great". Rod Carew certainly can't be great, right? I mean, he
did get those SEVEN batting titles with a lifetime .328 average and 3000+
hits, but gosh darn it he never appeared in a Series. He MUST be overrated.

And a conclusion:

Maybe guys who wear tube socks up to their knees and couldn't hit a
pitched beach ball with a wash board, should save the sermons about
"overrated" Hall of Fame players for table talk during fantasy drafts.

Too mean? Who cares.

Trent King

[ClementeFanOh]

Jewish Collector- also an intriguing debate! I'd have to put Hank on top, he
was a production beast. One thing is sure though- I won't call any of them
"overrated" (yep, that was the hoop and the harm!). Trent King

[isiahfan]

Kaline...close...but not that close to be honest.

You can say Clemente played his home games where he lost some HR...but not that much...Kaline was clearly ahead in R, RBI, HR & SB...not to mention his significant ailments.

Both had cannons...

If Kaline had died on the field...like he almost did... (Thank you Willie Horton)..I think you have the Munson/Clemente effect X2...

[ClementeFanOh]

Isiahfan- you are clearly entitled to an opinion on Robert vs Al. You chose
the wrong player, but that's not the point

If you are suggesting that Roberto Clemente and Thurman Munson basically
draw some sort of "collective sympathy" due to untimely deaths, you'd do
well to look at the numbers. Munson was on the path of a HOF career, while
Roberto had clearly completed one. Roberto was likely 1st ballot HOF material
absent the circumstances of his death, Munson was not. It's apples and
oranges. Trent King

[Carter08]

Clemente. Much cooler rookie card too.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

Peter Spaeth- I must point out, a bit tongue in cheek, that your defense of
G1911 is essentially a point in my favor. A couple pesky facts:

1) The original post was "Clemente vs Kaline", a compelling question.
G1911 went the "overrated" route, which was NOT the debate. I'm sure
one of you will provide superficial circumlocution to explain it away, of
course. The fact remains HE strayed, and I corrected him.

2) You won't get away with explaining away my reaction as "emotional". I
don't have a nurse handy, so I guess you'll have to decide whether to
believe me when I say my blood pressure hasn't risen one point during
this ridiculous exchange. For Roberto (and Al), the stats and facts speak
for themselves. Their career achievements are stupendous by any
measure.

And one observation:

I've noticed a cadre of folks on this site who really lack perspective on
player "greatness". If the rest of us mere mortals accepted their divine
logic, I'm fairly certain only Babe Ruth would be "rated" properly. Shleps
like Aaron and Mays should just be forgotten, they aren't number one.
Nolan Ryan? His trillion strikeouts and 7 no-nos are trifles, he isn't
actually "great". Rod Carew certainly can't be great, right? I mean, he
did get those SEVEN batting titles with a lifetime .328 average and 3000+
hits, but gosh darn it he never appeared in a Series. He MUST be overrated.

And a conclusion:

Maybe guys who wear tube socks up to their knees and couldn't hit a
pitched beach ball with a wash board, should save the sermons about
"overrated" Hall of Fame players for table talk during fantasy drafts.

Too mean? Who cares.

Trent King

Actually, if you read MY post #2, I was the first one who suggested the common perception of Roberto might be a bit higher than deserved. I don't see why this concept of a player possibly being overrated is so difficult for you. Or why you need to go on a sarcastic rant when nobody has suggested any of the players you named were not great. Anyhow, I don't need the aggravation, let me know if you want to discuss statistics in a dispassionate and objective way, otherwise have a nice evening.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

Peter Spaeth- I must point out, a bit tongue in cheek, that your defense of
G1911 is essentially a point in my favor. A couple pesky facts:

1) The original post was "Clemente vs Kaline", a compelling question.
G1911 went the "overrated" route, which was NOT the debate. I'm sure
one of you will provide superficial circumlocution to explain it away, of
course. The fact remains HE strayed, and I corrected him.

2) You won't get away with explaining away my reaction as "emotional". I
don't have a nurse handy, so I guess you'll have to decide whether to
believe me when I say my blood pressure hasn't risen one point during
this ridiculous exchange. For Roberto (and Al), the stats and facts speak
for themselves. Their career achievements are stupendous by any
measure.

And one observation:

I've noticed a cadre of folks on this site who really lack perspective on
player "greatness". If the rest of us mere mortals accepted their divine
logic, I'm fairly certain only Babe Ruth would be "rated" properly. Shleps
like Aaron and Mays should just be forgotten, they aren't number one.
Nolan Ryan? His trillion strikeouts and 7 no-nos are trifles, he isn't
actually "great". Rod Carew certainly can't be great, right? I mean, he
did get those SEVEN batting titles with a lifetime .328 average and 3000+
hits, but gosh darn it he never appeared in a Series. He MUST be overrated.

And a conclusion:

Maybe guys who wear tube socks up to their knees and couldn't hit a
pitched beach ball with a wash board, should save the sermons about
"overrated" Hall of Fame players for table talk during fantasy drafts.

Too mean? Who cares.

Trent King

At least figure out how to use the Quote button before embarrassing yourself further.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

G1911- since you brought up the word “simplistic” and the notion of acting grown up, I’ll point out that you’ve provided your own shovel and dug the hole you are standing in. You’ve also (figuratively) provided a mirror to gaze into, when making snide comments about other people needing to grow up…people like you work hard to make distinctions without differences, parse words, and otherwise strain like mad to extricate themselves from foolish comments they made in a silly effort to appear erudite. In short, there’s a fair chance you’re not as clever as you believe you are. (By the way, the “E sports” comment was about gamers. You know, guys who are great at Madden but can’t actually throw a football. It meant that your commentary was an exercise in mental self gratification rather than legitimate reasoning. I’m stunned someone of your brilliance missed the reference). Trent King

You don't even know what circular means (it is "parsing words" to be familiar with the dictionary, apparently), yet it is "mental self gratification" for me to be literate and know basic words. That isn't brilliance, it's a bare minimum. You're upset about a post that says Clemente is great and that it's a toss-up pick. Nobody is dogging on Clemente at all. Obviously "Great" and "overrated" are not a contradictory scale. I am aware what e-sports is, but there is no relevance to the subject.

I swear almost every thread has some dipshit just finding the stupidest hot take that can be made and doubling down on it. Like this clown who doesn't even know what a contradiction or circular logic is trying to correct an opinion statement that is neither. Could have said "I disagree" and made a rational case, but of course that's not what happens.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh;2264086/

How can a "great" player be
overrated? Ummm..he can't.

I would disagree here. "Great" players can certainly be overrated. Take the current trend on vintage baseball pages on Facebook, many of whom would have you believe Nolan Ryan to be the greatest pitcher of all time, or at least in the top 5, or something else equally laughable.

Yes, Nolan Ryan was great. He holds records that will not even be approached, much less equaled in terms of K's and no-hitters. But these folks overlook the individual nature of those accomplishments while throwing conventional measures of pitching greatness like ERA, WHIP, Winning %, etc. out the window. Because the sexy stats to pitching can't be denied, people want to take Ryan - who is maybe a top 25-50 pitcher overall at best, and elevate him all the way to the top. It's simply not true, and an example case of a great player being misunderstood and overrated.

[ClementeFanOh]

JHCollins- Dear God, the thread is Roberto vs Al… and if your source for definitions of “greatness” is a Facebook group, I’ve found the problem in that case at least. Trent King, still voting Roberto

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

JHCollins- Dear God, the thread is Roberto vs Al… and if your source for definitions of “greatness” is a Facebook group, I’ve found the problem in that case at least. Trent King, still voting Roberto

Dear God, someone disagreed with you.