So who was better ( Kaline or Clemente) ?

cgjackson222 · #1 09-15-2022, 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike D.

Loving the Hall of Stats love (my brother runs that site).

Also, a Clemente:

Very cool! Great website! And great card.

Mike D. · #2 09-15-2022, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

Very cool! Great website! And great card.

Thanks! Most people are shocked to find out that I'm only the SECOND biggest baseball geek in my family.

Mark17 · #3 09-15-2022, 06:45 PM

They were born in the same year, so about the same age throughout their careers. What I remember is that when the Tigers finally got into the World Series in 1968, Kaline wasn't even going to get regular playing time. He'd hit just .287 during the season, playing in 102 games (he never played in more than 133 games, from 1967 to 1973.) Manager Smith had to take the extraordinary gamble of moving his centerfielder, Mickey Stanley, to play shortstop, to manufacture a spot in the outfield for Al.

Meanwhile, Clemente, in the 1971 Series, hammered out 12 hits, batted over .400, and was the Series MVP.

I'll take Clemente.

By the way, despite his objections, he did sign his name "Bob" for Topps, at least once:

ClementeFanOh · #4 09-15-2022, 08:29 PM

To G1911-

Your entire reply to my comment is circular. How can a "great" player be
overrated? Ummm..he can't. And his "actual production" is a large part of
his HOF status- FOUR National League Batting Titles, .317 lifetime average,
defensive prowess, on and on (even the "trivia" about that little thing
called excellence in the World Series). When a player is being ranked by
various entities as somewhere between the 35th and 70th best players of
all time(!), out of a 5 figure pool of players, his "actual production"
MUST be incredible- we aren't discussing E sports heroes here.The renown
and reputation are just icing on a magnificent cake. Nice try, but you're
cornered by your own post. A player simply cannot be "great" with HOF
numbers, and somehow be "overrated". Trent King

PS- And Al Kaline was a bad man as well, no doubt.

ClementeFanOh · #5 09-15-2022, 08:31 PM

Almost forgot Mark17- I'm with you all the way! Trent King

G1911 · #6 09-15-2022, 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

To G1911-

Your entire reply to my comment is circular. How can a "great" player be
overrated? Ummm..he can't.

This is false. It appears you are looking for "contradictory" (that claims are in complete discord) more than "circular" (that the argument leads into itself), which would be the case if I said "great" and "not great". A player can obviously be great, and overrated. There are levels to it. Babe Ruth is great, Frank Thomas is great. That does not make them the same, it does not mean that a player cannot be under or over rated. Everyone in the top 100 is great; they are not the same.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

And his "actual production" is a large part of
his HOF status- FOUR National League Batting Titles, .317 lifetime average,
defensive prowess, on and on (even the "trivia" about that little thing
called excellence in the World Series).

Obviously. That's why I called him great.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

When a player is being ranked by
various entities as somewhere between the 35th and 70th best players of
all time(!), out of a 5 figure pool of players, his "actual production"
MUST be incredible

For the "actual production", yes. That's why I said he was great. Obviously. I do not subscribe to appeals to authority, something is not true or false because an authority says so. Otherwise, we would just take 1 of these rankings and nobody could disagree with it. This fallacy is not compelling.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

- we aren't discussing E sports heroes here.

What are you even talking about?

Quote:

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

The renown and reputation are just icing on a magnificent cake. Nice try, but you're
cornered by your own post. A player simply cannot be "great" with HOF
numbers, and somehow be "overrated". Trent King

You are surely capable of being aware that this is not true. A player can be great and overrated. Like Jeter. Like Ryan. Like Clemente. His level of fame is not in acclaim with the math. It doesn't mean he wasn't a great player, but he's not at the very tip top as his popularity would suggest.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

PS- And Al Kaline was a bad man as well, no doubt.

What are you even talking about?

People really need to grow up and stop getting upset and making absurd claims anytime they encounter an opinion that does not worship their idol. I love Gaylord Perry, he's probably my favorite of the 60's. That doesn't mean I have to overrate him and pretend he was the best in a matchup with another. That I like him doesn't stop me from being cognizant of the math and reality. I am confident others are capable of this simplistic realization.

Peter_Spaeth · #7 09-15-2022, 09:09 PM

Of course a great player can be overrated. I am not arguing Clemente is, just pointing out some have made that claim. If the objective evidence points to a player ranking (hypothetically) 50-60, yet public perception is 20-30, that great player is clearly overrated by many. I don't see any circular argument here. And yeah, I don't get the emotional defense either, nobody is insulting Roberto for god's sake, we're just trying to look at his career objectively and to contextualize it.

ClementeFanOh · #8 09-15-2022, 09:12 PM

G1911- since you brought up the word �simplistic� and the notion of acting grown up, I�ll point out that you�ve provided your own shovel and dug the hole you are standing in. You�ve also (figuratively) provided a mirror to gaze into, when making snide comments about other people needing to grow up�people like you work hard to make distinctions without differences, parse words, and otherwise strain like mad to extricate themselves from foolish comments they made in a silly effort to appear erudite. In short, there�s a fair chance you�re not as clever as you believe you are. (By the way, the �E sports� comment was about gamers. You know, guys who are great at Madden but can�t actually throw a football. It meant that your commentary was an exercise in mental self gratification rather than legitimate reasoning. I�m stunned someone of your brilliance missed the reference). Trent King

Jewish-collector · #9 09-15-2022, 09:27 PM

I was always wondering how to compare these outfielders, because I could never figure out who the hell was better: (not listed in any particular order)

Frank Robinson
Roberto Clemente
Al Kaline
Carl Yastrzemski
Lou Brock
Hank Aaron

How much better was Aaron than Frank ? How much better was Frank than Kaline or Clemente ?

ClementeFanOh · #10 09-15-2022, 09:49 PM

Peter Spaeth- I must point out, a bit tongue in cheek, that your defense of
G1911 is essentially a point in my favor. A couple pesky facts:

1) The original post was "Clemente vs Kaline", a compelling question.
G1911 went the "overrated" route, which was NOT the debate. I'm sure
one of you will provide superficial circumlocution to explain it away, of
course. The fact remains HE strayed, and I corrected him.

2) You won't get away with explaining away my reaction as "emotional". I
don't have a nurse handy, so I guess you'll have to decide whether to
believe me when I say my blood pressure hasn't risen one point during
this ridiculous exchange. For Roberto (and Al), the stats and facts speak
for themselves. Their career achievements are stupendous by any
measure.

And one observation:

I've noticed a cadre of folks on this site who really lack perspective on
player "greatness". If the rest of us mere mortals accepted their divine
logic, I'm fairly certain only Babe Ruth would be "rated" properly. Shleps
like Aaron and Mays should just be forgotten, they aren't number one.
Nolan Ryan? His trillion strikeouts and 7 no-nos are trifles, he isn't
actually "great". Rod Carew certainly can't be great, right? I mean, he
did get those SEVEN batting titles with a lifetime .328 average and 3000+
hits, but gosh darn it he never appeared in a Series. He MUST be overrated.

And a conclusion:

Maybe guys who wear tube socks up to their knees and couldn't hit a
pitched beach ball with a wash board, should save the sermons about
"overrated" Hall of Fame players for table talk during fantasy drafts.

Too mean? Who cares.

Trent King

G1911 · #11 09-15-2022, 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

G1911- since you brought up the word �simplistic� and the notion of acting grown up, I�ll point out that you�ve provided your own shovel and dug the hole you are standing in. You�ve also (figuratively) provided a mirror to gaze into, when making snide comments about other people needing to grow up�people like you work hard to make distinctions without differences, parse words, and otherwise strain like mad to extricate themselves from foolish comments they made in a silly effort to appear erudite. In short, there�s a fair chance you�re not as clever as you believe you are. (By the way, the �E sports� comment was about gamers. You know, guys who are great at Madden but can�t actually throw a football. It meant that your commentary was an exercise in mental self gratification rather than legitimate reasoning. I�m stunned someone of your brilliance missed the reference). Trent King

You don't even know what circular means (it is "parsing words" to be familiar with the dictionary, apparently), yet it is "mental self gratification" for me to be literate and know basic words. That isn't brilliance, it's a bare minimum. You're upset about a post that says Clemente is great and that it's a toss-up pick. Nobody is dogging on Clemente at all. Obviously "Great" and "overrated" are not a contradictory scale. I am aware what e-sports is, but there is no relevance to the subject.

I swear almost every thread has some dipshit just finding the stupidest hot take that can be made and doubling down on it. Like this clown who doesn't even know what a contradiction or circular logic is trying to correct an opinion statement that is neither. Could have said "I disagree" and made a rational case, but of course that's not what happens.

jchcollins · #12 09-20-2022, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh;2264086/

How can a "great" player be
overrated? Ummm..he can't.

I would disagree here. "Great" players can certainly be overrated. Take the current trend on vintage baseball pages on Facebook, many of whom would have you believe Nolan Ryan to be the greatest pitcher of all time, or at least in the top 5, or something else equally laughable.

Yes, Nolan Ryan was great. He holds records that will not even be approached, much less equaled in terms of K's and no-hitters. But these folks overlook the individual nature of those accomplishments while throwing conventional measures of pitching greatness like ERA, WHIP, Winning %, etc. out the window. Because the sexy stats to pitching can't be denied, people want to take Ryan - who is maybe a top 25-50 pitcher overall at best, and elevate him all the way to the top. It's simply not true, and an example case of a great player being misunderstood and overrated.

ClementeFanOh · #13 09-20-2022, 01:56 PM

JHCollins- Dear God, the thread is Roberto vs Al� and if your source for definitions of �greatness� is a Facebook group, I�ve found the problem in that case at least. Trent King, still voting Roberto

jchcollins · #14 09-20-2022, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

JHCollins- Dear God, the thread is Roberto vs Al� and if your source for definitions of �greatness� is a Facebook group, I�ve found the problem in that case at least. Trent King, still voting Roberto

Dear God, someone disagreed with you.

isiahfan · #15 09-16-2022, 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark17

They were born in the same year, so about the same age throughout their careers. What I remember is that when the Tigers finally got into the World Series in 1968, Kaline wasn't even going to get regular playing time. He'd hit just .287 during the season, playing in 102 games (he never played in more than 133 games, from 1967 to 1973.) Manager Smith had to take the extraordinary gamble of moving his centerfielder, Mickey Stanley, to play shortstop, to manufacture a spot in the outfield for Al.

Meanwhile, Clemente, in the 1971 Series, hammered out 12 hits, batted over .400, and was the Series MVP.

I'll take Clemente.

By the way, despite his objections, he did sign his name "Bob" for Topps, at least once:

Exactly...Kaline played his entire career with a bum foot...and from about 67 on played basically crippled...and still put up better overall numbers.

Additionally your version of the 68 series innfo is incorrect. They moved Stanley to SS to give a boost to the "O" in place of light hitting Oyler. They won the series (and Al was again crucial to their success in 1972) It is laughable that you say they had to manufacture a spot for AK in the OF. FYI he batted .379 with 6 R, 2 HR, 8 RBI...which you forget to mention.

I love Roberto guys...but putting him in a class above AK is ridiculous.

G1911 · #16 09-16-2022, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by isiahfan

Exactly...Kaline played his entire career with a bum foot...and from about 67 on played basically crippled...and still put up better overall numbers.

Additionally your version of the 68 series innfo is incorrect. They moved Stanley to SS to give a boost to the "O" in place of light hitting Oyler. They won the series (and Al was again crucial to their success in 1972) It is laughable that you say they had to manufacture a spot for AK in the OF. FYI he batted .379 with 6 R, 2 HR, 8 RBI...which you forget to mention.

I love Roberto guys...but putting him in a class above AK is ridiculous.

I'm confused as well.

Kaline's .287 in 1968, if he had played enough to qualify that season, would have been 4th in the batting race in that pitching dominated season. He had a 146 OPS+ that year. He was obviously performing very well.

Like I've said it, I think Kaline wins it but it's a very narrow gap between them. This 1968 argument definitely is not a good argument against Kaline and appears to be directly contradictory to the math.

Peter_Spaeth · #17 09-16-2022, 05:09 PM

"Just .287" even in a year other than 1968 sounds a bit oxymoronic, when since maybe the 1930s was that ever not a solid BA?

Mark17 · #18 09-16-2022, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by isiahfan

Exactly...Kaline played his entire career with a bum foot...and from about 67 on played basically crippled...and still put up better overall numbers.

Additionally your version of the 68 series innfo is incorrect. They moved Stanley to SS to give a boost to the "O" in place of light hitting Oyler. They won the series (and Al was again crucial to their success in 1972) It is laughable that you say they had to manufacture a spot for AK in the OF. FYI he batted .379 with 6 R, 2 HR, 8 RBI...which you forget to mention.

I love Roberto guys...but putting him in a class above AK is ridiculous.

You're right about Kaline's average being good for 1968, but he was the 4th outfielder. Northrup and Horton provided more production during the regular season, and Stanley hit well enough to go along with his Gold Glove centerfield play. Something had to give to squeeze Al into the lineup for the Series.

isiahfan · #19 09-16-2022, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark17

You're right about Kaline's average being good for 1968, but he was the 4th outfielder. Northrup and Horton provided more production during the regular season, and Stanley hit well enough to go along with his Gold Glove centerfield play. Something had to give to squeeze Al into the lineup for the Series.

Again...it wasn't to "squeeze" in a HOF...it was to remove Oyler.....

Selective memory I think..Kaline's total #s were down due to injury that year...but his slashes were still good...oh and he was considered pretty good on D too...winning 10/11 previous gold gloves up until his injury filled 1968...contrary to your writings...Kaline would not have been the odd man out...not sure why you keep spewing this nonsense

Peter_Spaeth · #20 09-16-2022, 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark17

You're right about Kaline's average being good for 1968, but he was the 4th outfielder. Northrup and Horton provided more production during the regular season, and Stanley hit well enough to go along with his Gold Glove centerfield play. Something had to give to squeeze Al into the lineup for the Series.

I don't look at it that way. You don't need to find a way to "squeeze" your HOF outfielder and face of the franchise into a lineup with Mickey Stanley and Jim Northrup, sorry. Look, by moving Stanley you lose that Gold Glove anyhow. Ae the poster above states, the gamble was could they get away with moving out the anemic Ray Oyler in favor of the reasonably good hitter Stanley. So Kaline's available status created an opportunity, it did necessitate anything. It would have been the easiest decision in the world to bench Northrup or Stanley in favor of Kaline if it came to that.

G1911 · #21 09-16-2022, 08:16 PM

Name - OPS+
Northrop - 129
Horton - 165
Kaline - 146
Stanley - 102
Oyler - 20

Now let us imagine we possess common sense and this isn�t about advocating Clemente. Who do we think they�re trying to cut out of the lineup? Who do we think the clear choices to start are?

Kaline played less games because he missed two months with a broken arm. The change was done to get Oyler, notorious as a great glove but possibly the worst hitter in the majors, out of the lineup. Even adjusting for the year of the pitcher, Oyler was 80% below the league average, an astounding figure that is rarely seen.

A guy hitting .287 in the 1968 AL would finish fourth in the batting race. Kaline had a great season. As he had every year since 1955. He is obviously not going to be kept out of the lineup.

The arguments presented for Clemente, mostly factually wrong or incredibly emotional, are not compelling.

Disclaimer for those who get triggered at any dissent to the narrative: Clemente was a great player and one of the few athletes I would uphold as an example of human virtue, a man I would consider admirable as a man and not an athlete. To say another player was a hair better is not an insult. To say he is overrated is not an insult. Objective reality is often not what we desire it to be, it is not personal or insulting to be cognizant of it.

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