So who was better ( Kaline or Clemente) ?

packs · #1 09-20-2022, 12:42 PM

I think you made a pretty clear case for Clemente. As you noted, Kaline wasn't shorted any portion of his career. He was cooked when he retired. But Clemente was still an All Star player and putting up numbers that garnered him MVP votes every year.

The discussion has been predicated on how similar their numbers are. But I think it's fairly certain Clemente would have eclipsed Kaline if given the additional years, although that assumes he wasn't considering retirement anyway.

Aquarian Sports Cards · #2 09-20-2022, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by packs

I think you made a pretty clear case for Clemente. As you noted, Kaline wasn't shorted any portion of his career. He was cooked when he retired. But Clemente was still an All Star player and putting up numbers that garnered him MVP votes every year.

The discussion has been predicated on how similar their numbers are. But I think it's fairly certain Clemente would have eclipsed Kaline if given the additional years, although that assumes he wasn't considering retirement anyway.

Except Kaline and Clemente's Age 37 seasons (Clemente's last) were remarkably similar so why would one assume Clemente was going to age better than Kaline?

packs · #3 09-20-2022, 01:32 PM

I guess because there's no reason not to?

Kaline was a largely forgotten man the last 7 seasons of his career. He received MVP votes in only one of them and finished 24th. He made 2 all star teams.

Clemente missed 1 all star game in the final 13 seasons of his career. He finished 5th in MVP voting in 1971 and 13th in 1972. He received MVP votes in 12 of his final 13 seasons.

cgjackson222 · #4 09-20-2022, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Except Kaline and Clemente's Age 37 seasons (Clemente's last) were remarkably similar so why would one assume Clemente was going to age better than Kaline?

Kaline and Clemente did have very similar slash lines at age 37:
Kaline: .313/.374/.475
Clemente: .312/.356/.479

What I think separates them is that Clemente was still a fantastic fielder. Clemente won his 12th straight Gold Glove in '72 (tying Mays for most ever by an OF). Clemente had a positive dwar of 1.0
Kaline had a negative dwar of -.4

Furthermore, Kaline was transitioning to 1st base. Therefore, his offensive WAR was lower because 1B typically has better offensive stats than Right Fielders.

isiahfan · #5 09-20-2022, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Except Kaline and Clemente's Age 37 seasons (Clemente's last) were remarkably similar so why would one assume Clemente was going to age better than Kaline?

Or to put it better..take away Kaline's last 2 years then....

Other than Avg...what does Clemente hold over him?

HR
RBI
SB

all heavly favor Kaline

packs · #6 09-20-2022, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by isiahfan

Or to put it better..take away Kaline's last 2 years then....

Other than Avg...what does Clemente hold over him?

HR
RBI
SB

all heavly favor Kaline

I think it's already well established that Clemente did age better than Kaline. I don't look at his final seasons and see a star in decline, whereas it seems like Kaline had been diminishing since 1968.

isiahfan · #7 09-20-2022, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by packs

I think it's already well established that Clemente did age better than Kaline. I don't look at his final seasons and see a star in decline, whereas it seems like Kaline had been diminishing since 1968.

Again...

This is like arguing and disclaiming Bonds..Clemens...etc.

Ifs...buts...maybes....

Taking their careers...as a whole...The stats IMO heavily favor Kaline

You can point to Clemente's avg...and more..triples?

I personally would take the:

200 more Runs
650 more Walks
275 more RBIs
160 more HRs
50 more SBs

Even for all of you wanting to add on 2-3 more hypothetical years ...Clemente still at best leads in Hits/Avg

I still take the RBI/HR/Walks and a guy that hit for avg...vs a guy that pretty much just hit for avg.

G1911 · #8 09-20-2022, 04:17 PM

Kaline had 144 and 149 OPS+'s at ages 36 and 37, Clemente 143 and 138. Kaline was not declining at this time. This is simply untrue. He was league average at age 38 and 39, before retiring.

Kaline was a star starting in 1955, at age 20 (he got MVP votes at age 19, but he did not deserve them). Clemente's breakout was 1960, at age 25. Before 1960 his bat was below league average, 6% over in 1956 when he hit .311 with no power and walked 13 times in 147 games, but below every other year. Like Kaline, Clemente blame a regular at a young age (19 for Kaline, 20 for Clemente) but he did not perform for some time. Clemente was a star player for 13 years, Kaline 18. It is not likely Clemente was going to age so well to turn this into an advantage for him.

If we are going to give Clemente credit for fantasy years that did not happen on the backend, we should give credit to Kaline for real, actual years on the front end.

isiahfan · #9 09-20-2022, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G1911

Kaline had 144 and 149 OPS+'s at ages 36 and 37, Clemente 143 and 138. Kaline was not declining at this time. This is simply untrue. He was league average at age 38 and 39, before retiring.

Kaline was a star starting in 1955, at age 20 (he got MVP votes at age 19, but he did not deserve them). Clemente's breakout was 1960, at age 25. Before 1960 his bat was below league average, 6% over in 1956 when he hit .311 with no power and walked 13 times in 147 games, but below every other year. Like Kaline, Clemente blame a regular at a young age (19 for Kaline, 20 for Clemente) but he did not perform for some time. Clemente was a star player for 13 years, Kaline 18. It is not likely Clemente was going to age so well to turn this into an advantage for him.

If we are going to give Clemente credit for fantasy years that did not happen on the backend, we should give credit to Kaline for real, actual years on the front end.

Precisely...If you are loooking at total numbers...not very close....if you are looking at longer/more productive peak years...again...not very close...if you want fantasy age 38-40 years...well bring your crystal ball

packs · #10 09-20-2022, 04:18 PM

This is about where they were in their careers when they stopped being contemporaries after Clemente�s death. I don�t think Kaline can be considered an elite player from 1968 to 1972 whereas I look at what Clemente was doing and see an elite player still at the top of his game.

G1911 · #11 09-20-2022, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by packs

This is about where they were in their careers when they stopped being contemporaries after Clemente�s death. I don�t think Kaline can be considered an elite player from 1968 to 1972 whereas I look at what Clemente was doing and see an elite player still at the top of his game.

Yes. I am aware. That's why I compared them at the same age.

In 1968 Kaline posted a 146 OPS+
in 1969, 116
In 1970, 127
In 1971, 144
In 1972, 149

He was one of the best hitters in baseball three of those five years and well over the league the other 2. This is not declining.

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
FS Update 7/21 1959 Clemente, Aaron/Mathews, Kaline. 1960 Clemente,Aaron & Snider ++	brian29575	1950 to 1959 Baseball cards- B/S/T	5	07-24-2013 11:46 AM
FS: four card lot kaline aaron clemente koufax	bfrench00	1950 to 1959 Baseball cards- B/S/T	6	03-09-2013 08:04 PM
FS: Kaline Salda coin and Clemente Coke Cap	GrayGhost	Baseball Memorabilia B/S/T	2	03-06-2013 02:47 PM
55 exmt kaline 66 psa 6 clemente ex mt	joepa	1950 to 1959 Baseball cards- B/S/T	0	06-28-2012 06:37 PM
Wanted: RC's: Clemente, Ford, Kaline, Wilhelm, etc.	DanP	1950 to 1959 Baseball cards- B/S/T	0	02-25-2011 05:12 PM