The All Overrated Team

G1911 · #1 09-20-2022, 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

This is more subjective than statistical.

C -- Munson. Heresy, I know.
1B -- Cepeda although Perez is fine too.
2B -- Joe Gordon. HOF? Seriously?
SS -- Jeter. Heresy, I know.
3B -- Traynor.
OF -- Clemente (ducks), Reggie, Snider (if only because he is always included in the trio with Mays and Mantle but come on.), Brock
P -- Ryan.

I don�t remember any public conversation when Joe Gordon was elected. Previously I considered him underrated; a guy the modern metrics like, a shortened career during his prime. He didn�t deserve to be forgotten, he didn�t deserve the hall either. I have no idea how he got elected on that ballot, there must be a story there. Most of the really and VC picks we know why, the Fritsch cronyism, Baines having his old bosses forming the voting base. I�d love to know what happened there

isiahfan · #2 09-21-2022, 12:58 AM

I am going with Koufax at SP...some people think he's the best ever...he had a great 5 year run (62-66) but was average at best outside of those few glory years...SO many guys has sick 3-5 year runs...but people claim him to be top 1...5...10...I just dont see it...I take Unit every day over him

Same with Ryan...longevity and his stats were WAY more consistent...his winning % wasnt great...but he (like Verlander) had quite a few years with some absurdly awful run support.

Hawk68 · #3 09-21-2022, 11:49 AM

SP Andy Pettitte - 3.85 ERA/1.35 WHIP/4 SHO in 3316 IP. An average Pitcher.
RP Lee Smith - HOFer ???????
C Ivan Rodriguez - PEDs for most of his career.
1B Tony Perez - Good player. Borderline HOFer.
2B Bill Mazeroski - Good defender. Not a HOFer.
SS Phil Rizzuto - HOFer???????
3B Graig Nettles - .248 Lifetime Avg.
LF Lou Brock - Very good player. Deserving HOFer but overrated.
CF Jim Edmonds - Seemed to anticipate the highlight reels. Good player.
RF Dave Winfield - I Always thought he could be better.
Manager Joe Torre - Mediocre manager for 14 years prior to Yankee gig.

packs · #4 09-21-2022, 02:06 PM

SP - Dizzy Dean - Tim Lincecum before Tim Lincecum
RP - Trevor Hoffman - as beige a career as there is
C - Campanella - sorry, some high highs but some low lows too
1B - Sorry Gil, but still not sure you're a HOFer
2B - Biggio - compiler
SS - Jeter but not through any fault of his own
3B - Paul Molitor - lumped in with third base but played more at DH
OF - Reggie - more strike outs than hits
OF - Kirby Puckett - probably not a popular pick
OF - Duke Snider - not a Willie or a Mickey

G1911 · #5 09-21-2022, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by packs

SP - Dizzy Dean - Tim Lincecum before Tim Lincecum

I like this. Dean was great, for as long as Lincecum was great.

campyfan39 · #6 09-22-2022, 09:58 PM

Respectfully, Campy doesn�t get close to the credit he deserves. Career limited at the beginning by racism as he was pioneer like Jackie. Doby and Campy get no credit for that.
Aside from that, in addition to his great defensive skills, he played 9 full seasons and won mvp 3 of them. That�s 1/3 of his career. Howmany guy have 3 mvps much less in one decade.

Quote:

Originally Posted by packs

SP - Dizzy Dean - Tim Lincecum before Tim Lincecum
RP - Trevor Hoffman - as beige a career as there is
C - Campanella - sorry, some high highs but some low lows too
1B - Sorry Gil, but still not sure you're a HOFer
2B - Biggio - compiler
SS - Jeter but not through any fault of his own
3B - Paul Molitor - lumped in with third base but played more at DH
OF - Reggie - more strike outs than hits
OF - Kirby Puckett - probably not a popular pick
OF - Duke Snider - not a Willie or a Mickey

packs · #7 09-23-2022, 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by campyfan39

Respectfully, Campy doesn’t get close to the credit he deserves. Career limited at the beginning by racism as he was pioneer like Jackie. Doby and Campy get no credit for that.
Aside from that, in addition to his great defensive skills, he played 9 full seasons and won mvp 3 of them. That’s 1/3 of his career. Howmany guy have 3 mvps much less in one decade.

I said I was sorry! His MVPs are what make me think of him as overrated. You hear three time MVP and you can't help but be impressed. But he sprinkled in some bad seasons in 1954, 1956 and his final season in 1957.

A third of his career he was incredible. Another third he wasn't.

G1911 · #8 09-23-2022, 11:37 AM

In his 9 seasons he played 100 games or more, he was significantly below league average for 3 of them.

He won 3 MVP’s. If one is a fan of WAR, he was not even really close to the most valuable player on his team in any of them. He performs better by the traditional stats but I have a hard time seeing him deserving these 3 MVP’s when looking at the other candidates performance, even though I like Campanella.

Bench has a similar issue with weak seasons mixed among brilliant ones. A lot of catchers do. I rate Berra as the #1 catcher but he doesn’t really deserved his 3 MVP’s either, the voters really liked Yogi and Campy.

He’s a lower tier hall of famer, excellent peak but his excellence was very brief. That everyone is now accounting negro league stats the same as the leagues everyone considered the majors until a couple years ago boosts his career figures somewhat, but I don’t think really changes his general tier but can bump him up a slot or two if all the catchers are ranked in order

Campy’s 52 Bowman is one of my favorite cards. Fellow had some great card poses. His 59 Topps is a special card for non aesthetic reasons. I grew up in Giants country, but having read most of the 50’s dodger hagiography and his teammates comments on him, it kind of hurts to rate him overrated.

campyfan39 · #9 09-23-2022, 08:26 PM

All good my friend!
I just love the guy so admittedly I am biased. I have a Dodger Blue Dodge Charger named Campy for crying out loud!

I think we was loved as he was so friendly and likeable even though he got racism from both sides being half Italian and half Black. His biography is wonderful as he kept his Christian faith despite what happened to him. I wouldn't say he was a great looking guy per se but most of his cards are beautiful.

I love lists and debates like this. Didn't mean to hijack it

Carry on

Quote:

Originally Posted by packs

I said I was sorry! His MVPs are what make me think of him as overrated. You hear three time MVP and you can't help but be impressed. But he sprinkled in some bad seasons in 1954, 1956 and his final season in 1957.

A third of his career he was incredible. Another third he wasn't.

My favorite item

Aquarian Sports Cards · #10 09-21-2022, 02:18 PM

Jackie picked at 2b is incomprehensible.

Through no fault of his own he didn't make the majors until he was 28. In 10 years he put up 60+ WAR. Name me another 2b who AVERAGED 6 WAR per season and I'll show you Rogers Hornsby and Eddie Collins. Show me a 2b who put up 60 WAR after the age of 28 and again I'll show you just Hornsby and Collins. For my money he's 3rd or 4th all time at the position. I can't decide between him and Morgan. Pretty hard to be overrated when your easily top 5 all-time at your position.

G1911 · #11 09-21-2022, 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Jackie picked at 2b is incomprehensible.

Through no fault of his own he didn't make the majors until he was 28. In 10 years he put up 60+ WAR. Name me another 2b who AVERAGED 6 WAR per season and I'll show you Rogers Hornsby and Eddie Collins. Show me a 2b who put up 60 WAR after the age of 28 and again I'll show you just Hornsby and Collins. For my money he's 3rd or 4th all time at the position. I can't decide between him and Morgan. Pretty hard to be overrated when your easily top 5 all-time at your position.

When you are #1-#2 in the public eye at any position, I don�t see how it is incomprehensible. His fame and reputation are immensely greater than his statistical achievement. This is not a slur to his actual performance.

Aquarian Sports Cards · #12 09-21-2022, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G1911

When you are #1-#2 in the public eye at any position, I don�t see how it is incomprehensible. His fame and reputation are immensely greater than his statistical achievement. This is not a slur to his actual performance.

Just not seeing it. I don't think anyone considers him the greatest second basemen of all time (though I actually think you could make the argument without stretching TOO hard, but it would have to include a lot of hypotheticals about his years lost to the war and the "gentleman's agreement")

Unless you think me having him at 3rd all time is ludicrously high, how can he be overrated at all, let alone the MOST overrated second basemen of all time, which is what putting him on your list represents. Shouldn't that "honor" be saved for someone who is ranked 10 or 20 spots too high as opposed to maybe one or two spots too high?

cgjackson222 · #13 09-21-2022, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Just not seeing it. I don't think anyone considers him the greatest second basemen of all time (though I actually think you could make the argument without stretching TOO hard, but it would have to include a lot of hypotheticals about his years lost to the war and the "gentleman's agreement")

Unless you think me having him at 3rd all time is ludicrously high, how can he be overrated at all, let alone the MOST overrated second basemen of all time, which is what putting him on your list represents. Shouldn't that "honor" be saved for someone who is ranked 10 or 20 spots too high as opposed to maybe one or two spots too high?

I guess it comes down to how we are defining how someone is "overrated."

I don't see how you could call Jackie overrated as a player unless you think WAR is a complete joke. As you pointed out, he put up 60 War in fewer than 1,500 games. The only others in history with as high a WAR in fewer than 1,500 games? “Shoeless” Joe Jackson (62.1 WAR in 1,332 games) and Mike Trout (76.1 WAR in 1,288 games). https://www.mlb.com/news/most-underrated-hall-of-famers

In Jackie's 5 year peak from 1949 thru 1953 his WAR was 9.3, 7.4, 9.7, 8.4, 6.9 for an absurd average of 8.34. People win MVP with 8 or less WAR on a regular basis.

I think the only way you could say Jackie is overrated is to say that his cards sell for too much. Which again, I think is a lousy argument, considering that he completely transformed the game.

G1911 · #14 09-21-2022, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Just not seeing it. I don't think anyone considers him the greatest second basemen of all time (though I actually think you could make the argument without stretching TOO hard, but it would have to include a lot of hypotheticals about his years lost to the war and the "gentleman's agreement")

Unless you think me having him at 3rd all time is ludicrously high, how can he be overrated at all, let alone the MOST overrated second basemen of all time, which is what putting him on your list represents. Shouldn't that "honor" be saved for someone who is ranked 10 or 20 spots too high as opposed to maybe one or two spots too high?

I would not rank him third among 2B. I don�t see a way to do that in the numbers without ignoring longevity entirely. I don�t give credit for the war years, to anyone. College and the war years create his gap (I�m giving him credit for his Negro League career). I don�t think I can reasonably count years that did not happen in reality. I�d have to find my notes but I had him around 10 last time I really deep dived into the 2B. I like Jackie, I�m fine with his cards selling for more than his talent as a great historical figure, but I think he is greatly overrated in the public eye. Ask casuals who the greatest historical players are at any position. They won�t say Eddie Collins (who I put #1 among 2B). His fame produces an inflation of his on the field performance.

rajah424 · #15 09-21-2022, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Just not seeing it. I don't think anyone considers him the greatest second basemen of all time (though I actually think you could make the argument without stretching TOO hard, but it would have to include a lot of hypotheticals about his years lost to the war and the "gentleman's agreement")

Unless you think me having him at 3rd all time is ludicrously high, how can he be overrated at all, let alone the MOST overrated second basemen of all time, which is what putting him on your list represents. Shouldn't that "honor" be saved for someone who is ranked 10 or 20 spots too high as opposed to maybe one or two spots too high?

In 1999, the Major League Baseball All-Century Team was chosen by popular vote of fans. To select the team, a panel of experts first compiled a list of the 100 greatest Major League Baseball players from the past 20th century. Over two million fans then voted on the players using paper and online ballots. The top two vote-getters from each position were placed on the team.

Here are the Shortstops on the list to vote for:

Rod Carew, Eddie Collins, Frankie Frisch, Charlie Gehringer, Rogers Hornsby, Napoleon Lajoie, Joe Morgan and Jackie Robinson.

Robinson came in 1st with 788,116 votes
Hornsby came in 2nd with 630,761 votes

I would say 788,116 think Robinson is the greatest 2nd basemen of all time.
I would personally say as great as he was, at least 788,116 people overrate him.

ronniehatesjazz · #16 09-25-2022, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Jackie picked at 2b is incomprehensible.

Through no fault of his own he didn't make the majors until he was 28. In 10 years he put up 60+ WAR. Name me another 2b who AVERAGED 6 WAR per season and I'll show you Rogers Hornsby and Eddie Collins. Show me a 2b who put up 60 WAR after the age of 28 and again I'll show you just Hornsby and Collins. For my money he's 3rd or 4th all time at the position. I can't decide between him and Morgan. Pretty hard to be overrated when your easily top 5 all-time at your position.

^^^This!

In some ways I actually feel bad for him having the great honor of being the first black MLB player. Tremendous accomplishment in its own right considering what he endured and how it transcended beyond sports. However, I think a lot of people overlook how good of a player he actually was. I think you're correct as the number 3 or 4 all time at 2nd.

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