After paying their dues, should hobbyists who committed fraud be allowed back ?

[skelly423]

Is there a way to admit them to the forum without BST privileges? If there is, I'm ok with it, but otherwise I'd rather not have them.

[iwantitiwinit]

Absolutely not. Similar to the way an individual in say the finance industry is barred from practicing again after conviction and completion of sentence and/or payment of a fine.

[Pat R]

No not if they committed fraud in the hobby, we've seen more than one person on here say that they were sorry for what they did after they got caught and turn around and do it again.

[oldjudge]

I'm good with a second chance, but only one. Screw up again and you become radioactive.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

As I get older I see more shades of gray than I used to. 10 years ago it would've been "absolutely not." Now I personally know one person I would make an exception for. Of course the more details of the story I've heard, the more I think (and he's never said this himself) that he got set up and screwed over.

Of course if part of their sentencing was that they are never allowed to go into business in the hobby again that might be a different story.

[notfast]

Nope. Why would anyone want to associate with someone who has defrauded the industry we are all involved in?

[EddieP]

The best way to be aware of fraud is to be taught by a fraudster. But I’d put them on a very, very, very, very, very short lease.

[benge610]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Now I personally know one person I would make an exception for. Of course the more details of the story I've heard, the more I think (and he's never said this himself) that he got set up and screwed over.

Of course if part of their sentencing was that they are never allowed to go into business in the hobby again that might be a different story.

+1

I trust your judgement in this matter, Leon.
I go back to the Full Count days and have been fortunate to interact with/learn from many.

Ben

"I love baseball history backstory; especially when it involves cards."

[Bobsbats]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

I'm good with a second chance, but only one. Screw up again and you become radioactive.

I agree 100% with Jay

[JustinD]

This is a difficult coin flip.

On one hand if people choose to use that knowledge for good and expose other fraudsters and contribute to the good of the hobby in the future, it can help our knowledge base.

Also, a second chance has helped many move on to great heights and I would appreciate it myself if I found myself in an issue due to an extreme circumstance.

The other would be those back on to do more trouble, take advantage of knowledge to advance dark skills, or have access to remove prior posts about their crimes.

I guess in the end, I agree with a second chance…not a third.

[Jim65]

To me, it depends on the person. If they are truly remorseful, then yes. If they refuse to take responsibility, blame others, etc, then no.

Everyone makes mistakes.

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by Jim65

To me, it depends on the person. If they are truly remorseful, then yes. If they refuse to take responsibility, blame others, etc, then no.

Everyone makes mistakes.

I like this…”remorseful”

Story time…

10+ years ago I was selling on eBay to fund my life during my first cancer surgery. I must have had at least 50-100 listings up at the time. One unknowingly to me as I really did not know, was a forged Mantle signature. The only autoed item in 100 listings. Obviously, I was not an autograph seller.

That listing was posted on the board and I was called out as a scammer, forger and just about everything possible by numerous well known members. I don’t take it personally because I knew jack shit about autos at the time (I’ve gained a little over the past 13 years but still have only a starting base).

What didn’t happen was one person sending me a message on eBay to inform me, I saw the post almost a decade later searching my ID. The true backstory is that I sold it, the seller found it fake and I refunded the entire amount with an apology. Well before eBay required refunds. Lesson learned, happy buyer and I was remorseful for selling a bad item.

However, if you google search my 5000+ Feedback and 100% positive eBay ID, I sell forgeries. So, yes…I like second chances. ( I know many of those we talk about were convicted of actual crimes, but not all.)

[refz]

No. I would like to say yes as everyone deserves a second chance, but what purpose would they serve? Limited to chat but no b/s/t makes no sense and to help broaden our defenses on scams/cons/counterfeits etc I think we are well covered with all of our experience. I say let it be

[Tyruscobb]

I'm in the No camp. Everyone deserves a second chance in society. However, this is not general society. It's a private community.

[mark evans]

Originally Posted by Bobsbats

I agree 100% with Jay

This sounds right.

Mark

[jingram058]

Originally Posted by Pat R

No not if they committed fraud in the hobby, we've seen more than one person on here say that they were sorry for what they did after they got caught and turn around and do it again.

So, if they've paid their debt, there is no acceptance? What, then, is the purpose of paying one's debt?

I say yes, if they were caught, convicted and incarcerated or otherwise served out whatever punishment as a result of judge or jury.

If we engage in speculation that someone is guilty of this or that, based on our own circumstantial evidence, that is different, and the owner/moderator should make the final decision.

If they are incorrigible, repeat offenders, then the answer should clearly be no.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Originally Posted by jingram058

So, if they've paid their debt, there is no acceptance? What, then, is the purpose of paying one's debt?

To fulfill their obligation in the eyes of the law.

Some people will obviously still be wary of recidivism. That can't be blamed.

I remember a recorded jailhouse phone call with one fellow most of us are familiar with. Once his time was served, he stated that he would come back bigger and stronger than ever. While that may be doubtful, would anyone wish to give such a person that opportunity within the confines of this forum? I know how I feel about it.

[SAllen2556]

I don't think you have to worry. Anyone in this hobby who's actually dumb enough to have been convicted probably can't read anyway.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by SAllen2556

I don't think you have to worry. Anyone in this hobby who's actually dumb enough to have been convicted probably can't read anyway.

You haven't been around the hobby very long then. I think smart, good people can make mistakes and atone for them. As far as them being on the forum, I want to see what others think. All comments and votes are welcomed.

and a card....of a black sox
Buck was never reintstated.....
.

[brunswickreeves]

It depends on the scope of the incident by the bad actor, so suggest is taken up on a case by case basis. Maybe via a small governance or review committee. But generally say no, yet hold: 'Once is an outlier, twice is a trend.'

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by jingram058

So, if they've paid their debt, there is no acceptance? What, then, is the purpose of paying one's debt?

I say yes, if they were caught, convicted and incarcerated or otherwise served out whatever punishment as a result of judge or jury.

If we engage in speculation that someone is guilty of this or that, based on our own circumstantial evidence, that is different, and the owner/moderator should make the final decision.

If they are incorrigible, repeat offenders, then the answer should clearly be no.

Well Leon asked about someone that was convicted of fraud in the hobby and there are different types of second chances if you had an employee steal money from you would you give them a second chance to work for you or if someone screwed you in a card sale would you buy from them or sell to them again?

[jingram058]

This comes up all the time, not just net54. All the holiers than thou have opinions on this. What constitutes paying one's debt that squares things in their eyes? Can it even be done? Should a convicted felon who has by all accounts paid his debt to society be allowed to vote?

[G1911]

Originally Posted by jingram058

This comes up all the time, not just net54. All the holiers than thou have opinions on this. What constitutes paying one's debt that squares things in their eyes? Can it even be done? Should a convicted felon who has by all accounts paid his debt to society be allowed to vote?

It’s not a court of law. We can choose to associate or not with people who scam us. It seems clear to me. I don’t deal with scammers and fraudsters, convicted or unconvicted(the vast majority). It seems a common sense policy to avoid headaches and getting robbed.

I get a free speech argument that even the most detestable should be allowed to speak. I don’t disagree with it, if there was a rule that speech of any kind is allowed and anyone may speak. Letting more scammers into the BST seems to be an unnecessary disaster to create though.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Pat R

Well Leon asked about someone that was convicted of fraud in the hobby and there are different types of second chances if you had an employee steal money from you would you give them a second chance to work for you or if someone screwed you in a card sale would you buy from them or sell to them again?

When you look at all the stuff Blowout has brought to light, and how little has been done in terms of actual arrests, it seems to me it would have to be a very big, very obvious and deliberate offense, to actually be charged and then convicted.

So, we're not talking about a guy who just trimmed a card or two, or swatted a few baseballs to add "game use" to a GU bat. We're talking about very egregious behavior - reported, investigated, arrested, tried, convicted.

[bnorth]

My vote is to let them or anybody else that wants to join, join. If they do something wrong then ban them or maybe not depending on who they are.

I did notice easily 100s of new members this morning that might need to be banned. It was like new accounts popping up every few seconds.

[Tomi]

Might as well be a case by case basis. Some crimes are huge and some are minor. Some are forgivable and some not.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by Mark17

When you look at all the stuff Blowout has brought to light, and how little has been done in terms of actual arrests, it seems to me it would have to be a very big, very obvious and deliberate offense, to actually be charged and then convicted.

So, we're not talking about a guy who just trimmed a card or two, or swatted a few baseballs to add "game use" to a GU bat. We're talking about very egregious behavior - reported, investigated, arrested, tried, convicted.

My answer is still no in regards to these people too if there is strong enough evidence. I only pointed out the convicted part in my reply to James because that's what Leon stated.

[raulus]

Hi Leon:

Thanks for raising this question, as I think it's worthy of some introspection and calm deliberation as we evaluate the best approach to take here. And while I am still a bit of a n00b around these parts, hopefully my opinion counts as something north of nothing, although others can debate just how big the spread should be there.

When I was a younger man, I would have encouraged you to go full old testament on them. Full lifetime ban, and erase them from existence. Now that I'm a little bit more of a seasoned chap, I'm inclined to be a bit less old testament, as I've learned that I need grace as much as the next fellow, and I'm grateful that death is no longer the punishment for even the most minor infractions.

At the same time, I am a big believer that all things should be done in wisdom and in order. Doing nothing seems like it could be a recipe for disaster, as acts of recidivism have the potential to harm those around us again, particularly if they are not familiar with the past indiscretions, high crimes, and misdemeanors against the hobby.

As an accountant, I’ve always found that a bit of disclosure is a helpful approach, as it is often short of more draconian censures, and yet still a lot more than nothing. I wonder if there might be some ability to disclose to the reader that the poster in question has been guilty in the past of misconduct in the industry. At the risk of going full Nathanial Hawthorne, maybe a big “F” for fraudster somewhere in their handle and/or in the footers to their posts? While still incredibly embarrassing and ignominious, this would at least allow the perpetrator an opportunity to move amongst us and participate in discussions, while still allowing the unsuspecting and trusting of us to be on notice about who we are dealing with.

Just an idea! And perhaps something that the technology might render difficult to address. But perhaps an option that walks the line between all or nothing.

[commishbob]

Originally Posted by iwantitiwinit

Absolutely not. Similar to the way an individual in say the finance industry is barred from practicing again after conviction and completion of sentance and/or payment of a fine.

My thoughts exactly. I have a friend I've known since college who was convicted of participation in some sort of loan kickback scheme. He served some (easy) time and then got his second chance but he's not allowed to work in the finance/banking industry.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by iwantitiwinit

Absolutely not. Similar to the way an individual in say the finance industry is barred from practicing again after conviction and completion of sentance and/or payment of a fine.

I agree with this. At a minimum I would say they should be barred from the bst.

[Mozzie22]

Absolutely Not. Honestly cannot understand how anyone would disagree with this.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Mozzie22

Absolutely Not. Honestly cannot understand how anyone would disagree with this.

And I cannot understand how anyone could possibly hold your viewpoint. It just comes across as remarkably ignorant to me.

Really? Nothing else matters to you? What if this person completely turned their life around and now works for the FBI to help identify fraudsters? What if they no longer buy or sell any cards at all and only want to contribute to discussions to share their hobby knowledge and any lessons they learned from making mistakes in the past? You're really not interested in anything they might have to say? Really?

People who see the world in black & white drive me insane.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Snowman

And I cannot understand how anyone could possibly hold your viewpoint. It just comes across as remarkably ignorant to me.

Really? Nothing else matters to you? What if this person completely turned their life around and now works for the FBI to help identify fraudsters? What if they no longer buy or sell any cards at all and only want to contribute to discussions to share their hobby knowledge and any lessons they learned from making mistakes in the past? You're really not interested in anything they might have to say? Really?

People who see the world in black & white drive me insane.

I'll just leave this here, because it makes me chuckle every time...

[MailboxBaseball]

I voted no.

To me Net54 is sort of a close knit community, almost a "baseball card family" of sorts, even though I'm sure many will consider that to be an overstatement.

Paying a debt to society is one thing, but learning from their mistakes and changing their lifestyles and mindset is completely a separate topic.

No one is saying these people shouldnt be allowed back into the hobby. They can buy, sell, or trade at any card show or other website in the world. But if they have defrauded people in the past, I think we should take at least the minimal steps to protect this special site.

Many of us have done some pretty insane deals over $10-grand on this site by paying via friends and family. When I tell my friends that, they ask "are you crazy???" haha.

If we don't have trust here when doing a deal, what do we have?

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by raulus

I'll just leave this here, because it makes me chuckle every time...

I'd be interested to learn why you think that applies here.

I'd also be interested to learn how you managed to attach your entire screen along with a 100x200 pixel image of what you were actually attempting to attach.

[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by raulus

I'll just leave this here, because it makes me chuckle every time...

Love it

Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk

[Mozzie22]

Originally Posted by Snowman

And I cannot understand how anyone could possibly hold your viewpoint. It just comes across as remarkably ignorant to me.

Really? Nothing else matters to you? What if this person completely turned their life around and now works for the FBI to help identify fraudsters? What if they no longer buy or sell any cards at all and only want to contribute to discussions to share their hobby knowledge and any lessons they learned from making mistakes in the past? You're really not interested in anything they might have to say? Really?

People who see the world in black & white drive me insane.

What if, what if, what if. I am not interested in anything someone has to say that has tried to screw over other collectors, period. This world you live in where a person screws over others and then suddenly realizes they've done wrong and repents sounds like a nice place to visit. Do I just click my heels three times to get there?

Something tells me you're about to have a really terrible Tuesday!

[Leon]

Originally Posted by skelly423

Is there a way to admit them to the forum without BST privileges? If there is, I'm ok with it, but otherwise I'd rather not have them.

For practical purposes lets say there is not a way to do this...
.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Leon

For practical purposes lets say there is not a way to do this...
.

If it includes BST, please no. Free speech grounds I get, but the BST is a nice and safe place right now that doesn’t need a bunch of fraudsters thrown in to destroy it and rip a bunch of good people off.

[90feetaway]

I mean anyone not registered can still see posts on the site and be "involved" in that sense just not respond to posts or part B/S/T? I'm comfortable with that.

[Smarti5051]

I feel like Net54 is supposed to be for true fans of the hobby. I don’t see how one that committed fraud in the hobby can be a true fan. How can you intentionally damage the hobby if you have any respect for it?

Also, i am not sure our justice system really meters out penalties that match the harm caused. As a society, obviously there are tradeoffs to what is prosecuted and to what extent in an effort to keep society safe. Unfortunately, these tradeoffs often mean that major breaches of trust in the hobby are given a slap on the wrist, at best. If you commit tax fraud, you may live a life of indentured servitude to make things right. If you counterfeit or trim $2 million in collectables, you might spend 30 days in jail and have to pay back a small fraction of what you stole. Let’s face it, for every $1000 in counterfeit cards that is discovered and provable by a prosecutor, there were likely 5-20x that amount actually sold by the fraudster.

It is bad enough that there are 100s of unidentified criminals to navigate in this hobby. Why let the known wolves back into the chicken coup? Like the old adage goes: Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

[hockeyhockey]

agree on BST privileges, think that should be earned versus just handed out.

but if you can't restrict that, is there a way to add a tag to these people, so we know who they are? not scarlet letter levels, but certainly good to know who you're buying from or selling to.

[x2drich2000]

Lots of gray areas with this one. If you are going to say no, where do you draw the line? Are we talking just convicted in a court of law (Mastro) or convicted by public opinion (PWCC)? What about those caught committing a crime at a young age and are generally now considered to be among the most trustworthy (Lifson)? How about those that have used the courts to avoid paying debts through bankruptcy (Goldin)?