Top 25 Worst MLB HOFER�S

Tabe · #1 11-09-2022, 11:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

Tim Raines' highest season WAR from 1985 through 1991 was 7.6 and his total WAR was 33.2

Raines is one of those guys that WAR loves far more than the numbers would seem to justify. In 1992, for example, his 7 homers and 22 doubles and .784 OPS were somehow worth a 6.3 WAR - basically the same as Mark McGwire and his 42 homers and league-leading 176 OPS+.

(Yes, I'm aware of the defensive component and positional adjustments, etc).

cgjackson222 · #2 11-10-2022, 01:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tabe

Raines is one of those guys that WAR loves far more than the numbers would seem to justify. In 1992, for example, his 7 homers and 22 doubles and .784 OPS were somehow worth a 6.3 WAR - basically the same as Mark McGwire and his 42 homers and league-leading 176 OPS+.

(Yes, I'm aware of the defensive component and positional adjustments, etc).

You really cherry-picked the data. Yes Raines had low doubles and HRs in 1992. After all, Raines was no longer an All-Star and was past his prime, having been traded to the White Sox. But he still hit .294 with an OBP of .380 (both 13th in the AL), had 9 triples (4th in the AL), and stole 45 bases (7th in the AL). With the high OBP, stolen bases and triples, he was still a run scoring machine with 102 (6th in AL).

And Raines had arguably his best fielding year with 312 putouts, 12 assists and only 2 errors in 129 games in the outfield.

I am not an expert in WAR, but it seems like if you get on base a lot, run the bases well, and field well, you can accumulate a lot of it.

Tabe · #3 11-11-2022, 01:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

You really cherry-picked the data. Yes Raines had low doubles and HRs in 1992. After all, Raines was no longer an All-Star and was past his prime, having been traded to the White Sox. But he still hit .294 with an OBP of .380 (both 13th in the AL), had 9 triples (4th in the AL), and stole 45 bases (7th in the AL). With the high OBP, stolen bases and triples, he was still a run scoring machine with 102 (6th in AL).

And Raines had arguably his best fielding year with 312 putouts, 12 assists and only 2 errors in 129 games in the outfield.

I am not an expert in WAR, but it seems like if you get on base a lot, run the bases well, and field well, you can accumulate a lot of it.

He got on base less than McGwire, had an OPS nearly 200 points lower, and scored just 15 more runs in 73 more PAs.

All I'm saying is a WAR of 6.3 implies a REALLY good year and 13th in OBP with no power doesn't match that.

cgjackson222 · #4 11-11-2022, 04:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tabe

He got on base less than McGwire, had an OPS nearly 200 points lower, and scored just 15 more runs in 73 more PAs.

All I'm saying is a WAR of 6.3 implies a REALLY good year and 13th in OBP with no power doesn't match that.

Again, defense and base running do matter. Winning baseball games involves more than hitting.

And to try to steer this back to the original topic--Tim Raines belongs in the HOF and is nowhere near one of the 25 worst in the HOF as someone wrote earlier.

Tabe · #5 11-11-2022, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

Again, defense and base running do matter. Winning baseball games involves more than hitting.

And to try to steer this back to the original topic--Tim Raines belongs in the HOF and is nowhere near one of the 25 worst in the HOF as someone wrote earlier.

I'm not sure he belongs but he definitely isn't in the 25 worst.

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