Hall of Fame Ballot Announced

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Ahh, enough time wasted on Schilling. He isn't disliked because he is a vocal Republican; he is disliked because he is a vocal asshole.

Let's talk Kenny Lofton. No character knocks on him. I absolutely hated seeing him come to the plate against teams I liked. I think the issue with him, frankly, is that he played a position at the time that always made him the third-best CF, behind Kirby Puckett and Ken Griffey Jr. Third fiddle in an orchestra with Jascha Heifetz and Izhak Perlman is pretty, pretty good, but won't get you the attention. The other issue was that he hung on after he'd lost a step or two and went from all-world to very good. I think that hurts his candidacy as it does Mattingly, Belle and Murphy. None of which I'd have an issue seeing in the HOF, but none of whom were anywhere near as valuable to their teams over their careers as Lofton was to his teams. His #s put him squarely in the middle of CFs in the HOF, just a tad below their average. His modern-style numbers are better than those three by a lot, but are a completely different mix of components.

Agreed!!

Lofton is a top 10 Centerfielder in WAR and JAWS, ahead of such Hall of Famers as Andre Dawson, Richie Ashburn, and Kirby Puckett. I think he gets overlooked because he didn't have a lot of black ink, as he only led the league in stolen bases (5x in a row), triples (1×) and hits (1x), and nothing in the last decade of his career. So unlike a lot of the short peak, low WAR guys up for a vote (Murphy, Mattingly, Belle) the highest he finished in MVP voting was 4th and 11th. It should be noted that in 1994, when Lofton finished 4th in MVP, he actually led the American League in WAR with 7.2.

He also didn't win a World Series or play particularly well in the playoffs. Note that neither Murphy, Mattingly, or Palmeiro ever made it to the World Series, and Belle played on the same '95 WS team as Lofton (Lofton also got to the WS with San Francisco in 2002).

I think Kenny Lofton is underrated as a fielder. He won 4 Gold Gloves, but probably deserved more. His career dWAR is 15.5. To put that in perspective, Andruw Jones and Willie Mays, widely regarded as the best fielding CFs ever have 24.4 and 18.2 respectively. 10x Gold Glove winner Ken Griffey Jr. has a career dWAR of 2.2, 8x Gold Glove winner Jim Edmonds has a career dWAR of 6.4.

If you care about overall career value, Lofton should be in.

[Mike D.]

I agree on Lofton being a good candidate and perhaps the best "one and done" candidate ever.

He didn't have any controversy during his playing career, but last year there was this:

https://www.latimes.com/california/s...ton%20co%2Down

My read on it is that it's not really a big thing...some employees had access to someplace he shared nude pictures in private messages....more dumb than evil.

[ejharrington]

Curt is a clear cut HOFer.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/jaws_P.shtml

[Jim65]

There are bad guys in the HOF, drug smugglers, players who beat up fans, punched umpires, spit in umpires face, racists, admitted cheaters, players who beat their wives, etc. Schilling's crime are words, he wouldn't be close to the worst guy in the HOF, if elected.

[Mike D.]

Originally Posted by Jim65

There are bad guys in the HOF, drug smugglers, players who beat up fans, punched umpires, spit in umpires face, racists, admitted cheaters, players who beat their wives, etc. Schilling's crime are words, he wouldn't be close to the worst guy in the HOF, if elected.

I tend to agree that we need to define the Hall of Fame by what a player does on the field. It's not realistic to play "morality police" and we can recognize a player's greatness on the field while not claiming they are saints.

[bbcard1]

Let me throw a name out there...I am completely a supporter of Lofton and Sweet Lou getting another look, but no one ever mentions Rick Rueschel. Talk about someone who doesn't pass the eyeball test, but the stats are right there in comparison to the mid-level HOF pitcher. Despite pitching for poor teams he has a 69.5 WAR (34th among starter) and is statistically ahead of several hall of famers. One of the better one and done candidates.

[raulus]

Speaking of business failures, how about those goons at FTX and all of their celebrity pitchmen?

I’d like to see Tom Brady and Steph Curry kept out of their respective HOFs for their participation in crypto codswallop and magic beans hucksterism.

For that matter, I’d like to see MLB take some lumps for putting FTX patches on the umpires uniforms.

For those of you who protest that Brady and Curry weren’t part of the ownership group, allow me to suggest that they were. At least from what has been publicly disseminated, they received equity in the business in exchange for their pitchmen roles. And a lot more than $75M evaporated when FTX went under.

[Mike D.]

Originally Posted by bbcard1

Let me throw a name out there...I am completely a supporter of Lofton and Sweet Lou getting another look, but no one ever mentions Rick Rueschel. Talk about someone who doesn't pass the eyeball test, but the stats are right there in comparison to the mid-level HOF pitcher. Despite pitching for poor teams he has a 69.5 WAR (34th among starter) and is statistically ahead of several hall of famers. One of the better one and done candidates.

Rueschel is an interesting one for sure. The modern metrics love him, but at the time and with traditional stats, he's solid but unspectacular.

People will insist this means that modern stats aren't worth a lick, but what amazes me is how often the traditional and the modern metrics AGREE on who the best players are.

BTW, the "active" version of Rueschel is Evan Longoria. His WAR is far higher than I would expect, with it approaching low end of HOF consideration. He did a lot of things better than average, but wasn't a standout in any one thing.

[G1911]

Lofton, I think, should also get in*. It’s a disgrace he fell off the ballot immediately. However, Schilling is actually on the ballot that the tread is about and Lofton is not. Getting to these other guys is one of many reasons to induct the obvious candidates that have been backlogging the ballots for the last decade.

I would probably not vote for Reuschel*. He has nothing but WAR; where we usually use WAR as a general ranker to summarize other stats, he has nothing else in hall territory at all.

Watching FTX crash and burn in the way that it has has been hilarious.

*I guess I need to investigate Lofton and Reuschel’s business careers to see if they’ve ever had a failed business before determining, though.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Mike D.

I tend to agree that we need to define the Hall of Fame by what a player does on the field. It's not realistic to play "morality police" and we can recognize a player's greatness on the field while not claiming they are saints.

Hypothetical to see if there are limits to what you say. Suppose OJ Simpson had decapitated 2 people shortly after retiring. Should he still have been voted into the football HOF?

Some people think Joe Jackson and Pete Rose should be in the Hall based on their play. So, I'm wondering, aren't there some non-playing things that do, and should, disqualify someone from HOF consideration?

[Mike D.]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Hypothetical to see if there are limits to what you say. Suppose OJ Simpson had decapitated 2 people shortly after retiring. Should he still have been voted into the football HOF?

Some people think Joe Jackson and Pete Rose should be in the Hall based on their play. So, I'm wondering, aren't there some non-playing things that do, and should, disqualify someone from HOF consideration?

Yes, I agree there is a logical limit...but things like poor business dealings, unpopular opinions, probably even steroid use during the non-testing days...kind of need to move past those eventually.

On Jackson and Rose...I do wonder if they'll eventually get in. I'm happy enough for Rose to be considered AFTER he's served his lifetime ban. I don't mind him being in, but I don't want anyone subjected to his self-absorbed acceptance speech.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Hypothetical to see if there are limits to what you say. Suppose OJ Simpson had decapitated 2 people shortly after retiring. Should he still have been voted into the football HOF?

Some people think Joe Jackson and Pete Rose should be in the Hall based on their play. So, I'm wondering, aren't there some non-playing things that do, and should, disqualify someone from HOF consideration?

I would say anything out of sports should be irrelevant. O.J. is the most extreme case, and I don't know the exact criteria by the Pro Football hall of fame related to such an extreme case, but I would say he should not be removed. Whatever he did outside of football is irrelevant to the question, is he or is he not one of the greatest pro players? The answer is undeniably "Yes".

Now if they put up an exhibit honoring his victims, I would be in favor of that too, because O.J. is a titanic waste of human life. But it doesn't change that he was one of the best RB's ever.

There's another baseball player being punished now, Omar Vizquel. His vote has been cut in half after a private suit was filed by an bat boy alleging Vizquel molested him and seeking financial compensation. None of us have the evidence of alleged incident available to make any meaningful judgement and I don't believe it has gone to court, but Vizquel is being treated wildly different in Hall voting due to the claim, which we do not know any evidence for or against.

My opinion is that Vizquel does not belong in the Hall on playing grounds, but this treatment is also wrong. A claim, without any evidence yet presented and made for financial gain, is also enough to sink a candidate for an honor based on his actual playing. This is wrong.

[perezfan]

There simply has to be a tier of players that comes very close, but fails to get into the Hall. It is illogical to believe that there's a line to be drawn which clearly delineates the hall of famers from the rest of the crowd. There will never be a big drop-off between HOFers and those that come close.

It's unfortunate for players like Dale Murphy, Steve Garvey, Kenny Lofton, Lou Whitaker, Joey Belle, Dave Parker, Jim Edmonds, Todd Helton, Don Mattingly, Keith Hernandez and Fred McGriff. I watched every one of those guys play many many games in their primes.

And during the course of their careers, I (personally) thought Murphy, Garvey, Parker, McGriff, Mattingly and perhaps Edmonds would end up in the Hall for sure.

Never really felt that way when watching Vizquel, Baines, Raines, Lofton, Whitaker, Belle, Walker, Helton, Trammell, Edgar, Rolen or Ted Simmons... half of which are in; half are not. They all just seemed like very good players. Just my 2 cents.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

Agreed!!

Lofton is a top 10 Centerfielder in WAR and JAWS, ahead of such Hall of Famers as Andre Dawson, Richie Ashburn, and Kirby Puckett. I think he gets overlooked because he didn't have a lot of black ink, as he only led the league in stolen bases (5x in a row), triples (1×) and hits (1x), and nothing in the last decade of his career. So unlike a lot of the short peak, low WAR guys up for a vote (Murphy, Mattingly, Belle) the highest he finished in MVP voting was 4th and 11th. It should be noted that in 1994, when Lofton finished 4th in MVP, he actually led the American League in WAR with 7.2.

He also didn't win a World Series or play particularly well in the playoffs. Note that neither Murphy, Mattingly, or Palmeiro ever made it to the World Series, and Belle played on the same '95 WS team as Lofton (Lofton also got to the WS with San Francisco in 2002).

I think Kenny Lofton is underestimated as a fielder. He won 4 Gold Gloves, but probably deserved more. His career dWAR is 15.5. To put that in perspective, Andruw Jones and Willie Mays, widely regarded as the best fielding CFs ever have 24.4 and 18.2 respectively. 10x Gold Glove winner Ken Griffey Jr. has a career dWAR of 2.2, 8x Gold Glove winner Jim Edmonds has a career dWAR of 6.4.

If you care about overall career value, Lofton should be in.

Lofton never really struck me as a HOFer when he played but I'd be OK with him getting in. Jim Edmonds is a guy I don't understand not being in. Elite defender at a premium position, twice hit 40 homers, 393 career homers, 132 OPS+. That reads like a HOF resume to me.

[Mike D.]

Originally Posted by Tabe

Lofton never really struck me as a HOFer when he played but I'd be OK with him getting in. Jim Edmonds is a guy I don't understand not being in. Elite defender at a premium position, twice hit 40 homers, 393 career homers, 132 OPS+. That reads like a HOF resume to me.

Yes, Edmonds is another good candidate. His WAR is significantly lower than Lofton's, but still well within the range of a Hall of Fame center fielder.

[tod41]

Originally Posted by Tabe

Lofton never really struck me as a HOFer when he played but I'd be OK with him getting in. Jim Edmonds is a guy I don't understand not being in. Elite defender at a premium position, twice hit 40 homers, 393 career homers, 132 OPS+. That reads like a HOF resume to me.

With all these relooks, Keith Hernandez should be seriously considered. His metrics are better than Mattingly's.

[ejharrington]

Originally Posted by tod41

With all these relooks, Keith Hernandez should be seriously considered. His metrics are better than Mattingly's.

100% agree.

[Carter08]

Originally Posted by ejharrington

100% agree.

Hernandez meets the eye test.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by tod41

With all these relooks, Keith Hernandez should be seriously considered. His metrics are better than Mattingly's.

I just don't see the case for Hernandez. Not much power, hit below .300, less than 2200 hits, etc. I know he's got all the Gold Gloves but, at the end of the day, 1B isn't a premium defensive position and dWAR doesn't like him that much. And, really, if you're putting in Hernandez, how do you leave out John Olerud?

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by Tabe

I just don't see the case for Hernandez. Not much power, hit below .300, less than 2200 hits, etc. I know he's got all the Gold Gloves but, at the end of the day, 1B isn't a premium defensive position and dWAR doesn't like him that much. And, really, if you're putting in Hernandez, how do you leave out John Olerud?

John Olerud was a fine player, but Hernandez was better.
Hernandez won an MVP with the Cardinals and finished 2nd in the voting with the Mets, followed by two more top 10 finishes. He was an all star 5x. 11 Gold Gloves.

Olerud was a 2x All-Star who only got MVP votes twice. 3 Gold Gloves.

Hernadez' WAR and JAWS are higher than Olerud as well.

Keith's appearance on Seinfeld and the fact that he is one of the better announcers doesn't hurt.

[tod41]

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

John Olerud was a fine player, but Hernandez was better.
Hernandez won an MVP with the Cardinals and finished 2nd in the voting with the Mets, followed by two more top 10 finishes. He was an all star 5x. 11 Gold Gloves.

Olerud was a 2x All-Star who only got MVP votes twice. 3 Gold Gloves.

Hernadez' WAR and JAWS are higher than Olerud as well.

Keith's appearance on Seinfeld and the fact that he is one of the better announcers doesn't hurt.

I was a big fan of Olerud, but no comparison. Hernandez played in a much tougher offensive era and was the Ozzie Smith, Johnny Bench and Brooks Robinson of his position.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

John Olerud was a fine player, but Hernandez was better.
Hernandez won an MVP with the Cardinals and finished 2nd in the voting with the Mets, followed by two more top 10 finishes. He was an all star 5x. 11 Gold Gloves.

Olerud was a 2x All-Star who only got MVP votes twice. 3 Gold Gloves.

Hernadez' WAR and JAWS are higher than Olerud as well.

Keith's appearance on Seinfeld and the fact that he is one of the better announcers doesn't hurt.

Olerud's 1993, where he led the AL in OPS+, was better than Hernandez's MVP season. His two best OPS+ seasons are much higher than Keith's best.

While I won't argue Hernandez was not better defensively, Olerud was close and he was better at eliminating throwing errors thanks to his extra 5" in height and larger wingspan. At the end of the day, though, the difference in their defense adds up to not much actual impact.

I'm not saying Olerud belongs in. I don't. But I also don't think Keith does either. The Hall doesn't need 1B with 162 homers.

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by Tabe

Olerud's 1993, where he led the AL in OPS+, was better than Hernandez's MVP season. His two best OPS+ seasons are much higher than Keith's best.

While I won't argue Hernandez was not better defensively, Olerud was close and he was better at eliminating throwing errors thanks to his extra 5" in height and larger wingspan. At the end of the day, though, the difference in their defense adds up to not much actual impact.

I'm not saying Olerud belongs in. I don't. But I also don't think Keith does either. The Hall doesn't need 1B with 162 homers.

Keith Hernandez has a higher JAWS than 10 HOF First Baseman, including Bill Terry, Harmon Killibrew, David Ortiz, Tony Perez, and Orlando Cepeda, and is a hair behind Sisler. There is more to being a first baseman than hitting Home Runs.

Keith may not be a shoe-in, but he deserves another chance at a vote. I suppose Olerud may too.

[kmac32]

If you excuse the Steroid allegations, only Bonds and Clemons from this group. The other guys were great players and great skills but fall short of what is required for HOF enshrinement. Shilling is out because he fails as a human being in my opinion.

[nwobhm]

Originally Posted by kmac32

….Shilling is out because he fails as a human being in my opinion.

How so…..what did he do that was so tragic as to keep it out….

Child molester?
Murderer?
Rapist?
Drug addict?
Cheater?
Drug dealer?
Mobster?
Peeping Tom?
Jaywalker?
Bank robber?
Flasher?
Vivisectionist?
Necrophiliac?
Satanism?
Drunkard?
Necromancer?
Wife beater?
Gay?

All of the above?

[G1911]

Originally Posted by nwobhm

How so…..what did he do that was so tragic as to keep it out….

Child molester?
Murderer?
Rapist?
Drug addict?
Cheater?
Drug dealer?
Mobster?
Peeping Tom?
Jaywalker?
Bank robber?
Flasher?
Vivisectionist?
Necrophiliac?
Satanism?
Drunkard?
Necromancer?
Wife beater?
Gay?

All of the above?

Even worse than these, he's an ideological enemy of some's party. I mean, a failed businessman. Yes, that is the reason.

If we ignore steroids for Bonds and Clemens, I don't see how Palmeiro isn't also a clear hall of famer. He's not as good as Bonds, obviously, but he seems to be easily over the Hall standard. 3,000 hits, 569 homers, 132 OPS+. He's clearly a hall of famer as well, if we are ignoring the roads.