Hall of Fame Ballot Announced

[Mike D.]

Originally Posted by Jim65

There are bad guys in the HOF, drug smugglers, players who beat up fans, punched umpires, spit in umpires face, racists, admitted cheaters, players who beat their wives, etc. Schilling's crime are words, he wouldn't be close to the worst guy in the HOF, if elected.

I tend to agree that we need to define the Hall of Fame by what a player does on the field. It's not realistic to play "morality police" and we can recognize a player's greatness on the field while not claiming they are saints.

[bbcard1]

Let me throw a name out there...I am completely a supporter of Lofton and Sweet Lou getting another look, but no one ever mentions Rick Rueschel. Talk about someone who doesn't pass the eyeball test, but the stats are right there in comparison to the mid-level HOF pitcher. Despite pitching for poor teams he has a 69.5 WAR (34th among starter) and is statistically ahead of several hall of famers. One of the better one and done candidates.

[raulus]

Speaking of business failures, how about those goons at FTX and all of their celebrity pitchmen?

I’d like to see Tom Brady and Steph Curry kept out of their respective HOFs for their participation in crypto codswallop and magic beans hucksterism.

For that matter, I’d like to see MLB take some lumps for putting FTX patches on the umpires uniforms.

For those of you who protest that Brady and Curry weren’t part of the ownership group, allow me to suggest that they were. At least from what has been publicly disseminated, they received equity in the business in exchange for their pitchmen roles. And a lot more than $75M evaporated when FTX went under.

[Mike D.]

Originally Posted by bbcard1

Let me throw a name out there...I am completely a supporter of Lofton and Sweet Lou getting another look, but no one ever mentions Rick Rueschel. Talk about someone who doesn't pass the eyeball test, but the stats are right there in comparison to the mid-level HOF pitcher. Despite pitching for poor teams he has a 69.5 WAR (34th among starter) and is statistically ahead of several hall of famers. One of the better one and done candidates.

Rueschel is an interesting one for sure. The modern metrics love him, but at the time and with traditional stats, he's solid but unspectacular.

People will insist this means that modern stats aren't worth a lick, but what amazes me is how often the traditional and the modern metrics AGREE on who the best players are.

BTW, the "active" version of Rueschel is Evan Longoria. His WAR is far higher than I would expect, with it approaching low end of HOF consideration. He did a lot of things better than average, but wasn't a standout in any one thing.

[G1911]

Lofton, I think, should also get in*. It’s a disgrace he fell off the ballot immediately. However, Schilling is actually on the ballot that the tread is about and Lofton is not. Getting to these other guys is one of many reasons to induct the obvious candidates that have been backlogging the ballots for the last decade.

I would probably not vote for Reuschel*. He has nothing but WAR; where we usually use WAR as a general ranker to summarize other stats, he has nothing else in hall territory at all.

Watching FTX crash and burn in the way that it has has been hilarious.

*I guess I need to investigate Lofton and Reuschel’s business careers to see if they’ve ever had a failed business before determining, though.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Mike D.

I tend to agree that we need to define the Hall of Fame by what a player does on the field. It's not realistic to play "morality police" and we can recognize a player's greatness on the field while not claiming they are saints.

Hypothetical to see if there are limits to what you say. Suppose OJ Simpson had decapitated 2 people shortly after retiring. Should he still have been voted into the football HOF?

Some people think Joe Jackson and Pete Rose should be in the Hall based on their play. So, I'm wondering, aren't there some non-playing things that do, and should, disqualify someone from HOF consideration?

[Mike D.]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Hypothetical to see if there are limits to what you say. Suppose OJ Simpson had decapitated 2 people shortly after retiring. Should he still have been voted into the football HOF?

Some people think Joe Jackson and Pete Rose should be in the Hall based on their play. So, I'm wondering, aren't there some non-playing things that do, and should, disqualify someone from HOF consideration?

Yes, I agree there is a logical limit...but things like poor business dealings, unpopular opinions, probably even steroid use during the non-testing days...kind of need to move past those eventually.

On Jackson and Rose...I do wonder if they'll eventually get in. I'm happy enough for Rose to be considered AFTER he's served his lifetime ban. I don't mind him being in, but I don't want anyone subjected to his self-absorbed acceptance speech.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Hypothetical to see if there are limits to what you say. Suppose OJ Simpson had decapitated 2 people shortly after retiring. Should he still have been voted into the football HOF?

Some people think Joe Jackson and Pete Rose should be in the Hall based on their play. So, I'm wondering, aren't there some non-playing things that do, and should, disqualify someone from HOF consideration?

I would say anything out of sports should be irrelevant. O.J. is the most extreme case, and I don't know the exact criteria by the Pro Football hall of fame related to such an extreme case, but I would say he should not be removed. Whatever he did outside of football is irrelevant to the question, is he or is he not one of the greatest pro players? The answer is undeniably "Yes".

Now if they put up an exhibit honoring his victims, I would be in favor of that too, because O.J. is a titanic waste of human life. But it doesn't change that he was one of the best RB's ever.

There's another baseball player being punished now, Omar Vizquel. His vote has been cut in half after a private suit was filed by an bat boy alleging Vizquel molested him and seeking financial compensation. None of us have the evidence of alleged incident available to make any meaningful judgement and I don't believe it has gone to court, but Vizquel is being treated wildly different in Hall voting due to the claim, which we do not know any evidence for or against.

My opinion is that Vizquel does not belong in the Hall on playing grounds, but this treatment is also wrong. A claim, without any evidence yet presented and made for financial gain, is also enough to sink a candidate for an honor based on his actual playing. This is wrong.

[perezfan]

There simply has to be a tier of players that comes very close, but fails to get into the Hall. It is illogical to believe that there's a line to be drawn which clearly delineates the hall of famers from the rest of the crowd. There will never be a big drop-off between HOFers and those that come close.

It's unfortunate for players like Dale Murphy, Steve Garvey, Kenny Lofton, Lou Whitaker, Joey Belle, Dave Parker, Jim Edmonds, Todd Helton, Don Mattingly, Keith Hernandez and Fred McGriff. I watched every one of those guys play many many games in their primes.

And during the course of their careers, I (personally) thought Murphy, Garvey, Parker, McGriff, Mattingly and perhaps Edmonds would end up in the Hall for sure.

Never really felt that way when watching Vizquel, Baines, Raines, Lofton, Whitaker, Belle, Walker, Helton, Trammell, Edgar, Rolen or Ted Simmons... half of which are in; half are not. They all just seemed like very good players. Just my 2 cents.

[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by perezfan

There simply has to be a tier of players that comes very close, but fails to get into the Hall. It is illogical to believe that there's a line to be drawn which clearly delineates the hall of famers from the rest of the crowd. There will never be a big drop-off between HOFers and those that come close.

It's unfortunate for players like Dale Murphy, Steve Garvey, Kenny Lofton, Lou Whitaker, Joey Belle, Dave Parker, Jim Edmonds, Todd Helton, Don Mattingly, Keith Hernandez and Fred McGriff. I watched every one of those guys play many many games in their primes.

And during the course of their careers, I (personally) thought Murphy, Garvey, Parker, McGriff, Mattingly and perhaps Edmonds would end up in the Hall for sure.

Never really felt that way when watching Vizquel, Baines, Raines, Lofton, Whitaker, Belle, Walker, Helton, Trammell, Edgar, Rolen or Ted Simmons... half of which are in; half are not. They all just seemed like very good players. Just my 2 cents.

You left out the best player not in the Hall - Dick Allen.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Gorditadogg

You left out the best player not in the Hall - Dick Allen.

Ah crap... I knew I was leaving out a big one. Had to dig deep for those other names and left out the obvious.... Yeah Dick Allen is a big omission.

Speaking of which.... Congrats Mark, on scoring that gorgeous Dick Allen Flannel. Classic jersey of a future HOFer. A tremendous addition to your collection!

[cgjackson222]

If you could replace one player from the Contemporary Ballot with of a player that wasn't nominated, which players would you choose?

I would switch out Albert Belle for Lou Whitaker. Belle was one of the most feared hitters during his career, but his career was just too short. His bWAR of 40.1 and JAWS of of 38.1 both rank 41st for Left Fielders, behind Brian Downing, Roy White any many other non-HOF worthy players. He only had 5 years where his bWAR was 4 or greater. His use of a corked bat doesn't help his case--even if corked bats may not actually help you hit better. Just because you are bad at cheating, doesn't mean you didn't cheat.

Sweet Lou won ROY, was a 5x All Star, 4x Silver Slugger, and 3x Gold Glove winner, and won a World Series.

Whitaker didn't have a high peak, but it was long--he had 10 years of 4 bWAR or greater. Whitaker's 75.1 bWAR ranks 7th all-time among Second Basemen, ahead of Ryne Sandberg, Roberto Alomar and many other HOFers.

The fact that Allan Trammel is in the HOF and Whitaker isn't makes no sense. Whitaker has more hits, Runs, HRs, RBI, a higher OBP, Slugging, and beat him by 7 points in OPS+