Some of the mysteries and myths surrounding the most famous card in the hobby.

Snowman · #1 11-19-2022, 03:11 AM

Smells like a reprint to me

benjulmag · #2 11-19-2022, 09:14 AM

Here’s what I can add to this discussion.

I knew Bob Sevchuk. He was one of the dealers I did business with. I remember soon after I bought a 1939 Playball set from him he called to tell me he would be receiving from Florida a NrMt-Mt Wagner, and would I be interested in purchasing it. One year prior I had purchased the Wagner I own now, a nice copy that I grade ex-ex+. I told Bob that if in fact he had a NrMt-Mt copy coming, which would be an upgrade on the one I had, I would be interested. He told me to wait until he received the card so he could confirm it was in that condition. When it arrived he called to say he received the card and it really was NrMt-Mt. I asked him the provenance of the card as, to put it mildly, I was astonished that a Wagner in that condition would turn up, especially from Florida. The response I got was vague, saying it came from Florida, with little additional detail. I don’t recall whether he mentioned it came from a flea market, but it is possible he did. I told him I wanted to see it, but that I wanted to bring someone with me to opine whether the card was real. I told him I would get back to him in a few days. Next thing I heard was that he had sold it to Mastro and it was the talk of the Willow Grove show, a show I attended. One rumor floating around was that it was the oversized Wagner sold by Lipset a few years earlier (that currently resides at the HOF) cut down.

As has been noted, a significant number of Wagners originate from Long Island, including most of the high grade copies. Mine came from an old-time hobby veteran, who was from Long Island. The notion of the sheet originating from a flea market in Florida and the cards being in the condition they are, pristine white borders with vivid colors, uncreased and having no reported condition issues, always struck me as remarkable. That said, many New Yorkers do spend their winters in Florida, and amazing things have been known to turn up at flea markets.

What does this all mean? I don’t know. But, I have always been intrigued by the allegation (which was discussed at length in a thread on this Board many years ago) that in the 1950’s T206 reprints were made from the original printing plates, and were assembled in combinations different from how they were assembled in 1909.

In mentioning this I want to stress that I am not saying the card is not genuine. I remember when REA sold the Plank years ago looking at it under a loupe to see if I could discern any differences in the dot matrix pattern. I could not, so at least to a person who claims no expertise in examining dot matrix patterns, it passed that visual test. But there are things about it that are extraordinary, and to me, a person extremely focused on provenance and a believer that counterfeiting is more prevalent and more of a risk than most collectors realize, I do not possess the same degree of confidence in its genuineness that I possess with other Wagners, and I do not believe a forensic examination of its physical components would be an unwarranted exercise.

Peter_Spaeth · #3 11-19-2022, 10:23 AM

If it's a twice cut sheet cut reprint, then OMG.

G1911 · #4 11-19-2022, 11:35 AM

Now this would be a plot twist. I have never seen an actually high quality image of the card.

If the old rumors of the original plates/stones reprint operation should be true, an image probably would not be telling and the card would need to be cracked out for proper examination, which it might pass even then. If the Wagner was worth enough to do this in the fifties, I would think those plates/stones would have been kept. This operation seems unlikely, too perfect to be true, a kind of old wives tale for hobbyists that floats around in every little world and never really checks out but constructed to be almost impossible to disprove. I would not assume the card is authentic though, and suspect that eventually our hobby will be ruined by correct ink and correct stock reprints.

Fake or not, this testimony would seem to confirm Sevchuks story has not really changed on the origin. Which does not make it true, but it is testimony from a key primary source with direct knowledge, which is better than nothing. I am eager to see this research that this was a lie and the card was discovered in NY.

Peter_Spaeth · #5 11-19-2022, 11:40 AM

I too fear that eventually, counterfeits will make trimming seem like the good old days.

G1911 · #6 11-19-2022, 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I too fear that eventually, counterfeits will make trimming seem like the good old days.

I ain�t no printing expert, but it seems to me that, while certainly not easy to remake the setup, of a period press of the correct type, making printing stones, and sourcing period correct stock and ink (may not need stock even, it is probably possible to remove the ink off a T card), the hundreds of millions of dollars to be gained by counterfeiting Wagner alone would make it a venture worthwhile. Even a single reprinted EX Wagner would net, what, $10,000,000 for the maker? It seems to me inevitable that reprints will improve (almost all of them are easily spotted today) with the absurd amounts of money sitting there to be made. A single strip faked in such a way would provide lifetime wealth for one�s self, children and grandchildren.

Peter_Spaeth · #7 11-19-2022, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G1911

I ain�t no printing expert, but it seems to me that, while certainly not easy to remake the setup, of a period press of the correct type, making printing stones, and sourcing period correct stock and ink (may not need stock even, it is probably possible to remove the ink off a T card), the hundreds of millions of dollars to be gained by counterfeiting Wagner alone would make it a venture worthwhile. Even a single reprinted EX Wagner would net, what, $10,000,000 for the maker? It seems to me inevitable that reprints will improve (almost all of them are easily spotted today) with the absurd amounts of money sitting there to be made. A single strip faked in such a way would provide lifetime wealth for one�s self, children and grandchildren.

I suspect that like every other technological advance, once perfected, it will become easier and cheaper to do and we'll start to see more and more of it. Hopefully not.

bnorth · #8 11-19-2022, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G1911

I ain�t no printing expert, but it seems to me that, while certainly not easy to remake the setup, of a period press of the correct type, making printing stones, and sourcing period correct stock and ink (may not need stock even, it is probably possible to remove the ink off a T card), the hundreds of millions of dollars to be gained by counterfeiting Wagner alone would make it a venture worthwhile. Even a single reprinted EX Wagner would net, what, $10,000,000 for the maker? It seems to me inevitable that reprints will improve (almost all of them are easily spotted today) with the absurd amounts of money sitting there to be made. A single strip faked in such a way would provide lifetime wealth for one�s self, children and grandchildren.

Reprints are now and have been undetectable for decades. Seriously people have counterfeited complete historic books that have fooled ALL the experts. When entire books can be counterfeited a beyond simple baseball card has to be like childs play.

But don't worry everyone the cards you collect isn't the typwe of cards anyone would counterfeit or alter.

Here is a thread I posted on counterfeiting. https://net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=289753

Peter_Spaeth · #9 11-19-2022, 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G1911

Now this would be a plot twist. I have never seen an actually high quality image of the card.

If the old rumors of the original plates/stones reprint operation should be true, an image probably would not be telling and the card would need to be cracked out for proper examination, which it might pass even then. If the Wagner was worth enough to do this in the fifties, I would think those plates/stones would have been kept. This operation seems unlikely, too perfect to be true, a kind of old wives tale for hobbyists that floats around in every little world and never really checks out but constructed to be almost impossible to disprove. I would not assume the card is authentic though, and suspect that eventually our hobby will be ruined by correct ink and correct stock reprints.

Fake or not, this testimony would seem to confirm Sevchuks story has not really changed on the origin. Which does not make it true, but it is testimony from a key primary source with direct knowledge, which is better than nothing. I am eager to see this research that this was a lie and the card was discovered in NY.

It would be interesting to know the source of the claim that Alan Ray refused to divulge where he got the card. It's out there now on a couple of sites but without attribution. I mean, who would have asked him other than Sevchuk? I don't think it was Bill because unless I have this wrong, Bill did not deal directly with Ray, only through Sevchuk.

toppcat · #10 11-19-2022, 11:50 AM

I knew Sevchuk and was a regular in his Hicksville store for years but never knew about the Wagner. He had a partner at one point called Marty Perry, who might know something. Bob was a genius at ferreting out amazing stuff-he also paid a 10% finder's fee, which likely helped a lot in that regard.

G1911 · #11 11-19-2022, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It would be interesting to know the source of the claim that Alan Ray refused to divulge where he got the card. It's out there now on a couple of sites but without attribution. I mean, who would have asked him other than Sevchuk? I don't think it was Bill because unless I have this wrong, Bill did not deal directly with Ray, only through Sevchuk.

I think it may be a slight misstatement. It seems Ray refused to publicly state where he got the card (which seems confirmable, he never has), which doesn�t mean much one way or another (it could be for any number of reasons, wanting to keep a source private, not seeking publicity to his father, or something as grand as not wanting to steer attention to a reprinting operation or by giving a lie that might be proven false later). That he did this doesn�t mean he didn�t or wouldn�t have told his dealer partner on the piece. On its face, it�s not an oddity. His business partner is in the know on the details, more than what is said in public. That�s normal. Of course, people in general have little relationship to honesty whatsoever, and tend to say whatever they think is beneficial to themselves in a particular moment without regard for truth. Many seem to struggle to separate their narrative from actual truth and come to conflate the two as the same exact thing. It�s not a lot of evidence, just one testimony. That testimony makes sense, Wagners have been found in odder places than a 1980�s flea market, it is internally consistent, and it doesn�t contradict anything we know to be true. Any extant research would be immensely valuable in evaluating if this seems the likeliest case or not.

Peter_Spaeth · #12 11-19-2022, 12:30 PM

Well, it isn't Rashomon, but it's interesting what we can and cannot reconstruct of this.

benjulmag · #13 11-19-2022, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G1911

Now this would be a plot twist. I have never seen an actually high quality image of the card.

If the old rumors of the original plates/stones reprint operation should be true, an image probably would not be telling and the card would need to be cracked out for proper examination, which it might pass even then. If the Wagner was worth enough to do this in the fifties, I would think those plates/stones would have been kept. This operation seems unlikely, too perfect to be true, a kind of old wives tale for hobbyists that floats around in every little world and never really checks out but constructed to be almost impossible to disprove. I would not assume the card is authentic though, and suspect that eventually our hobby will be ruined by correct ink and correct stock reprints.

Fake or not, this testimony would seem to confirm Sevchuks story has not really changed on the origin. Which does not make it true, but it is testimony from a key primary source with direct knowledge, which is better than nothing. I am eager to see this research that this was a lie and the card was discovered in NY.

Greg,

Please understand that to us old-time collectors, whose obsessions have nothing to do with the monetary value of the cards, the worth of the cards was not any motivating factor in our collecting actions. I vividly reminder as a kid in the 60s voraciously gobbling up reprints and reissues (e.g., 1960 and 1961 Fleers) and being beyond thrilled. So the notion that any such collectors, who had the opportunity to create their own fantasy reprints from original printing plates, needed to be motivated by financial gain IMO is totally inaccurate.

G1911 · #14 11-19-2022, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by benjulmag

Greg,

Please understand that to us old-time collectors, whose obsessions have nothing to do with the monetary value of the cards, the worth of the cards was not any motivating factor in our collecting actions. I vividly reminder as a kid in the 60s voraciously gobbling up reprints and reissues (e.g., 1960 and 1961 Fleers) and being beyond thrilled. So the notion that any such collectors, who had the opportunity to create their own fantasy reprints from original printing plates, needed to be motivated by financial gain IMO is totally inaccurate.

I do not think that is an age based mindset. I�m in the group who hopes the market completely collapses so I can put together my sets cheaper.

Alright, we will remove the financial aspect of faking T206 Wagners (which had value already). It still leaves the problem, that it is an old wives type tale that is present in every hobby and every group, without any real evidence that has ever surfaced for it. I�ve heard stories of these perfect old reprints for near 20 years, but never an attribution, much less evidence. To believe one of these gossip tales, of the �perfect crime�, without any evidence or even source for the origin of the long standing tale, would not be reasonable of me. It would be markedly unreasonable. I have always found that reason is a better guide than hearsay.

Snowman · #15 11-20-2022, 12:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If it's a twice cut sheet cut reprint, then OMG.

I would wager a lot of money on this being the case if it were something that could be proven. It just doesn't pass the smell test to me.

Pat R · #16 11-19-2022, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by benjulmag

Here’s what I can add to this discussion.

I knew Bob Sevchuk. He was one of the dealers I did business with. I remember soon after I bought a 1939 Playball set from him he called to tell me he would be receiving from Florida a NrMt-Mt Wagner, and would I be interested in purchasing it. One year prior I had purchased the Wagner I own now, a nice copy that I grade ex-ex+. I told Bob that if in fact he had NrMt-Mt copy coming, which would be an upgrade on the one I had, I would be interested. He told me to wait until he received the card so he could confirm it was in that condition. When it arrived he called to say he received the card and it really was NrMt-Mt. I asked him the provenance of the card as, to put it mildly, I was astonished that a Wagner in that condition would turn up, especially from Florida. The response I got was vague, saying it came from Florida, with little additional detail. I don’t recall whether he mentioned it came from a flea market, but it is possible he did. I told him I wanted to see it, but that I wanted to bring someone with me to opine whether the card was real. I told him I would get back to him in a few days. Next thing I heard was that he had sold it to Mastro and it was the talk of the Willow Grove show, a show I attended. One rumor floating around was that it was the oversized Wagner sold by Lipset a few years earlier (that currently resides at the HOF) cut down.

As has been noted, a significant number of Wagners originate from Long Island, including most of the high grade copies. Mine came from an old-time hobby veteran, who was from Long Island. The notion of the sheet originating from a flea market in Florida and the cards being in the condition they are, pristine white borders with vivid colors, uncreased and having no reported condition issues, always struck me as remarkable. That said, many New Yorkers do spend their winters in Florida, and amazing things have been known to turn up at flea markets.

What does this all mean? I don’t know. But, I have always been intrigued by the allegation (which was discussed at length in a thread on this Board many years ago) that in the 1950’s T206 reprints were made from the original printing plates, and were assembled in combinations different from how they were assembled in 1909.

In mentioning this I want to stress that I am not saying the card is not genuine. I remember when REA sold the Plank years ago looking at it under a loupe to see if I could discern any differences in the dot matrix pattern. I could not, so it least to a person who claims no expertise in examining dot matrix patterns, it passed that visual test. But there are things about it that are extraordinary, and to me, a person extremely focused on provenance and a believer that counterfeiting is more prevalent and more of a risk than most collectors realize, I do not possess the same degree of confidence in its genuineness that I possess with other Wagners, and I do not believe a forensic examination of its physical components would be an unwarranted exercise.

Thanks for the response Corey. It's not the same as having it in hand but I've seen large enough scans of the Plank and I don't see anything to indicate that it's not genuine. I've never seen a really good scan of the Wagner, I did see it up close at the Atlantic City National in 2003 but I had only been collecting T206's for a couple of years and didn't know much about them at the time.

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