Some of the mysteries and myths surrounding the most famous card in the hobby.

[Peter_Spaeth]

If it's a twice cut sheet cut reprint, then OMG.

[G1911]

Now this would be a plot twist. I have never seen an actually high quality image of the card.

If the old rumors of the original plates/stones reprint operation should be true, an image probably would not be telling and the card would need to be cracked out for proper examination, which it might pass even then. If the Wagner was worth enough to do this in the fifties, I would think those plates/stones would have been kept. This operation seems unlikely, too perfect to be true, a kind of old wives tale for hobbyists that floats around in every little world and never really checks out but constructed to be almost impossible to disprove. I would not assume the card is authentic though, and suspect that eventually our hobby will be ruined by correct ink and correct stock reprints.

Fake or not, this testimony would seem to confirm Sevchuks story has not really changed on the origin. Which does not make it true, but it is testimony from a key primary source with direct knowledge, which is better than nothing. I am eager to see this research that this was a lie and the card was discovered in NY.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I too fear that eventually, counterfeits will make trimming seem like the good old days.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I too fear that eventually, counterfeits will make trimming seem like the good old days.

I ain’t no printing expert, but it seems to me that, while certainly not easy to remake the setup, of a period press of the correct type, making printing stones, and sourcing period correct stock and ink (may not need stock even, it is probably possible to remove the ink off a T card), the hundreds of millions of dollars to be gained by counterfeiting Wagner alone would make it a venture worthwhile. Even a single reprinted EX Wagner would net, what, $10,000,000 for the maker? It seems to me inevitable that reprints will improve (almost all of them are easily spotted today) with the absurd amounts of money sitting there to be made. A single strip faked in such a way would provide lifetime wealth for one’s self, children and grandchildren.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

I ain’t no printing expert, but it seems to me that, while certainly not easy to remake the setup, of a period press of the correct type, making printing stones, and sourcing period correct stock and ink (may not need stock even, it is probably possible to remove the ink off a T card), the hundreds of millions of dollars to be gained by counterfeiting Wagner alone would make it a venture worthwhile. Even a single reprinted EX Wagner would net, what, $10,000,000 for the maker? It seems to me inevitable that reprints will improve (almost all of them are easily spotted today) with the absurd amounts of money sitting there to be made. A single strip faked in such a way would provide lifetime wealth for one’s self, children and grandchildren.

I suspect that like every other technological advance, once perfected, it will become easier and cheaper to do and we'll start to see more and more of it. Hopefully not.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by G1911

I ain’t no printing expert, but it seems to me that, while certainly not easy to remake the setup, of a period press of the correct type, making printing stones, and sourcing period correct stock and ink (may not need stock even, it is probably possible to remove the ink off a T card), the hundreds of millions of dollars to be gained by counterfeiting Wagner alone would make it a venture worthwhile. Even a single reprinted EX Wagner would net, what, $10,000,000 for the maker? It seems to me inevitable that reprints will improve (almost all of them are easily spotted today) with the absurd amounts of money sitting there to be made. A single strip faked in such a way would provide lifetime wealth for one’s self, children and grandchildren.

Reprints are now and have been undetectable for decades. Seriously people have counterfeited complete historic books that have fooled ALL the experts. When entire books can be counterfeited a beyond simple baseball card has to be like childs play.

But don't worry everyone the cards you collect isn't the typwe of cards anyone would counterfeit or alter.

Here is a thread I posted on counterfeiting. https://net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=289753

[G1911]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Reprints are now and have been undetectable for decades. Seriously people have counterfeited complete historic books that have fooled ALL the experts. When entire books can be counterfeited a beyond simple baseball card has to be like childs play.

But don't worry everyone the cards you collect isn't the typwe of cards anyone would counterfeit or alter.

Here is a thread I posted on counterfeiting. https://net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=289753

I wouldn't be shocked if it has been done, but I have not seen any actual evidence. I prefer to follow the evidence.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by G1911

I wouldn't be shocked if it has been done, but I have not seen any actual evidence. I prefer to follow the evidence.

My post has nothing to do with a specific card. Just showing that it would be beyond easy to do for someone with a little knowledge and willingness to learn.

People always bring up the 52 Mantle and the T206 Wagner and say why don't they make/counterfeit them. For the same reason nobody tries to counterfeit the Mona Lisa.

[Lorewalker]

I am far from an expert on T206s or even the theories or stories behind the provenance on the PSA 8 but has that it could be a "vintage" reprint or an example that was not intended to be placed into packs of cigs, if I have read this correctly, was not one that I had heard.

The being cut twice, once from a strip or sheet and then again by Mastro, years later, was nothing new but not sure I ever read the info that benjulmag shared today. Appreciate this sharing it.

Very interesting developments. Not sure this ever gets any more clear than it is now.

[brass_rat]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Reprints are now and have been undetectable for decades. Seriously people have counterfeited complete historic books that have fooled ALL the experts. When entire books can be counterfeited a beyond simple baseball card has to be like childs play.

But don't worry everyone the cards you collect isn't the typwe of cards anyone would counterfeit or alter.

Here is a thread I posted on counterfeiting. https://net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=289753

Thanks for linking to that. I just watched the PBS special referred to in your post, and I enjoyed it. The video includes a lot more context and information than the short article.

Here’s a direct link to the full episode:
https://www.pbs.org/wnet/secrets/gal...n-i3gwo5/4400/

Steve

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

Now this would be a plot twist. I have never seen an actually high quality image of the card.

If the old rumors of the original plates/stones reprint operation should be true, an image probably would not be telling and the card would need to be cracked out for proper examination, which it might pass even then. If the Wagner was worth enough to do this in the fifties, I would think those plates/stones would have been kept. This operation seems unlikely, too perfect to be true, a kind of old wives tale for hobbyists that floats around in every little world and never really checks out but constructed to be almost impossible to disprove. I would not assume the card is authentic though, and suspect that eventually our hobby will be ruined by correct ink and correct stock reprints.

Fake or not, this testimony would seem to confirm Sevchuks story has not really changed on the origin. Which does not make it true, but it is testimony from a key primary source with direct knowledge, which is better than nothing. I am eager to see this research that this was a lie and the card was discovered in NY.

It would be interesting to know the source of the claim that Alan Ray refused to divulge where he got the card. It's out there now on a couple of sites but without attribution. I mean, who would have asked him other than Sevchuk? I don't think it was Bill because unless I have this wrong, Bill did not deal directly with Ray, only through Sevchuk.

[toppcat]

I knew Sevchuk and was a regular in his Hicksville store for years but never knew about the Wagner. He had a partner at one point called Marty Perry, who might know something. Bob was a genius at ferreting out amazing stuff-he also paid a 10% finder's fee, which likely helped a lot in that regard.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It would be interesting to know the source of the claim that Alan Ray refused to divulge where he got the card. It's out there now on a couple of sites but without attribution. I mean, who would have asked him other than Sevchuk? I don't think it was Bill because unless I have this wrong, Bill did not deal directly with Ray, only through Sevchuk.

I think it may be a slight misstatement. It seems Ray refused to publicly state where he got the card (which seems confirmable, he never has), which doesn’t mean much one way or another (it could be for any number of reasons, wanting to keep a source private, not seeking publicity to his father, or something as grand as not wanting to steer attention to a reprinting operation or by giving a lie that might be proven false later). That he did this doesn’t mean he didn’t or wouldn’t have told his dealer partner on the piece. On its face, it’s not an oddity. His business partner is in the know on the details, more than what is said in public. That’s normal. Of course, people in general have little relationship to honesty whatsoever, and tend to say whatever they think is beneficial to themselves in a particular moment without regard for truth. Many seem to struggle to separate their narrative from actual truth and come to conflate the two as the same exact thing. It’s not a lot of evidence, just one testimony. That testimony makes sense, Wagners have been found in odder places than a 1980’s flea market, it is internally consistent, and it doesn’t contradict anything we know to be true. Any extant research would be immensely valuable in evaluating if this seems the likeliest case or not.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Well, it isn't Rashomon, but it's interesting what we can and cannot reconstruct of this.

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by G1911

Now this would be a plot twist. I have never seen an actually high quality image of the card.

If the old rumors of the original plates/stones reprint operation should be true, an image probably would not be telling and the card would need to be cracked out for proper examination, which it might pass even then. If the Wagner was worth enough to do this in the fifties, I would think those plates/stones would have been kept. This operation seems unlikely, too perfect to be true, a kind of old wives tale for hobbyists that floats around in every little world and never really checks out but constructed to be almost impossible to disprove. I would not assume the card is authentic though, and suspect that eventually our hobby will be ruined by correct ink and correct stock reprints.

Fake or not, this testimony would seem to confirm Sevchuks story has not really changed on the origin. Which does not make it true, but it is testimony from a key primary source with direct knowledge, which is better than nothing. I am eager to see this research that this was a lie and the card was discovered in NY.

Greg,

Please understand that to us old-time collectors, whose obsessions have nothing to do with the monetary value of the cards, the worth of the cards was not any motivating factor in our collecting actions. I vividly reminder as a kid in the 60s voraciously gobbling up reprints and reissues (e.g., 1960 and 1961 Fleers) and being beyond thrilled. So the notion that any such collectors, who had the opportunity to create their own fantasy reprints from original printing plates, needed to be motivated by financial gain IMO is totally inaccurate.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

Greg,

Please understand that to us old-time collectors, whose obsessions have nothing to do with the monetary value of the cards, the worth of the cards was not any motivating factor in our collecting actions. I vividly reminder as a kid in the 60s voraciously gobbling up reprints and reissues (e.g., 1960 and 1961 Fleers) and being beyond thrilled. So the notion that any such collectors, who had the opportunity to create their own fantasy reprints from original printing plates, needed to be motivated by financial gain IMO is totally inaccurate.

I do not think that is an age based mindset. I’m in the group who hopes the market completely collapses so I can put together my sets cheaper.

Alright, we will remove the financial aspect of faking T206 Wagners (which had value already). It still leaves the problem, that it is an old wives type tale that is present in every hobby and every group, without any real evidence that has ever surfaced for it. I’ve heard stories of these perfect old reprints for near 20 years, but never an attribution, much less evidence. To believe one of these gossip tales, of the ‘perfect crime’, without any evidence or even source for the origin of the long standing tale, would not be reasonable of me. It would be markedly unreasonable. I have always found that reason is a better guide than hearsay.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If it's a twice cut sheet cut reprint, then OMG.

I would wager a lot of money on this being the case if it were something that could be proven. It just doesn't pass the smell test to me.