Current HOF election results

[Mike D.]

Originally Posted by Misunderestimated

Looks like Scott Rolen and maybe Todd Helton .... Billy Wagner and Andruw Jones not quite...
Beltran's getting docked for his role in Astros cheating.

http://www.bbhoftracker.com/

The unpublished values tend to lower the percentages some, but I agree that Helton appears to be trending well, with Helton having a shot.

I actually think Beltran's showing is pretty good. If you make 50%+ your first year, you're kind of on the first track.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I am not seeing the case for Andruw Jones at all. Unless you want to admit Delgado, Gallaraga, and god knows who else. Yes, I know he could play center field.

[butchie_t]

Todd Helton has made a very nice jump from last year. Makes me happy, I have a good number of his cards autographed when he was in Colorado Springs.

Question I have to the group is who is the best TPG when it comes to autographed cards?

Butch

[z28jd]

It looks like right now that no one will make it because Helton and Rolen aren't picking up enough new votes to make up their difference from last year. Check the percentage of ballots counted vs the number of new votes from last year and what they need. Neither is trending high enough.

That's a shame for Rolen, because his combined defense/offense makes him a better than some first ballot HOF'ers.

I could care less about Helton making it. I have no respect for any drunken drivers, especially not habitual offenders like him. Cooperstown only has one traffic light, so if he does eventually make it, be careful of the road if you go to his ceremony.

[G1911]

By the time we’re done keeping out and kicking out everyone who has done something negative or somebody doesn’t like because they don’t suit X narrative, we will have a plaque of Christy Mathewson in an otherwise empty building.

[FrankWakefield]

So let's then realize that Matty will get lonesome, and we restore about 40-50 of the best of the others.

[Yoda]

Originally Posted by FrankWakefield

So let's then realize that Matty will get lonesome, and we restore about 40-50 of the best of the others.

Let's let Lou Gehrig keep Matty company, so he doesn't get too lonely in that big Hall.

[JollyElm]

I'm just glad that in the first 8 posts there has not been a single, ridiculous reference to the frickin' theoretical stat of WAR. Thank the Lord above (below?)!!!! The players being mentioned are people whose entire careers we basically all witnessed first hand, so we each know who we truly feel are Hall-worthy based on actually watching them play, yes?

[butchie_t]

Agree. I vote for both Todd and Scott. Screw that war junk.

I STILL believe Todd was screwed out of ROY just because the voters were enamored with Kerry Wood at the time. Ugh….. I’ll take a HOF selection for a nice compensation.

Originally Posted by JollyElm

I'm just glad that in the first 8 posts there has not been a single, ridiculous reference to the frickin' theoretical stat of WAR. Thank the Lord above (below?)!!!! The players being mentioned are people whose entire careers we basically all witnessed first hand, so we each know who we truly feel are Hall-worthy based on actually watching them play, yes?

[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

I'm just glad that in the first 8 posts there has not been a single, ridiculous reference to the frickin' theoretical stat of WAR. Thank the Lord above (below?)!!!! The players being mentioned are people whose entire careers we basically all witnessed first hand, so we each know who we truly feel are Hall-worthy based on actually watching them play, yes?

Baseball has been about stats for oh, about 150 years now, and WAR is one of the best.

Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk

[nat]

WAR is just a way to measure what a player did, in a way that helps you answer certain sorts of questions. It's a tool. Like any tool, it's useful for some things, and not for others.

For what it's worth, Rolen measures up very well by WAR. On the career list he's one spot above Ed Delahanty and exactly tied with Carlos Beltran. Which also feels about right to me.

The thing that bothers me about this years' voting is the Billy Wagner love. Yes, he struck out a lot of guys, but in his entire career he pitched only 903 innings. Of course, that's because he was a relief pitcher, but it's going to be very hard to be as valuable to your team as a HOF-level starting pitcher if you're only pitching 70 innings a year.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by nat

The thing that bothers me about this years' voting is the Billy Wagner love. Yes, he struck out a lot of guys, but in his entire career he pitched only 903 innings. Of course, that's because he was a relief pitcher, but it's going to be very hard to be as valuable to your team as a HOF-level starting pitcher if you're only pitching 70 innings a year.

He's the best closer not named Mariano Rivera. I don't like closers in the Hall but it's a real position (now) and Wagner was absolutely elite at it for 15 years.

[jingram058]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

I'm just glad that in the first 8 posts there has not been a single, ridiculous reference to the frickin' theoretical stat of WAR. Thank the Lord above (below?)!!!! The players being mentioned are people whose entire careers we basically all witnessed first hand, so we each know who we truly feel are Hall-worthy based on actually watching them play, yes?

A big +1 and Amen!

[jingram058]

Is it just me? The people we're talking about here SEEM mighty weak to be talking about HOF. Unless I'm missing something, these people were good ballplayers. Is that what the HOF is, the Hall of Good? Do you really see these guys up there with Ruth, Cobb, Mantle, Mays, Aaron, etc.?

[packs]

I don't think Scott Rolen is a weak HOFer. He's ranked as the 10th best third baseman of all time and the 9 guys ahead of him are all in the HOF (with Beltre being a lock).

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by jingram058

Is that what the HOF is, the Hall of Good? Do you really see these guys up there with Ruth, Cobb, Mantle, Mays, Aaron, etc.?

Yes. Do you really not see these guys up there with the likes of Lindstrom, Kell, Marquard, Maranville, Aparicio, Ferrell, et al.?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by jingram058

Is it just me? The people we're talking about here SEEM mighty weak to be talking about HOF. Unless I'm missing something, these people were good ballplayers. Is that what the HOF is, the Hall of Good? Do you really see these guys up there with Ruth, Cobb, Mantle, Mays, Aaron, etc.?

The HOF has never been limited to truly elite, all time starting lineup type players. So that's a false comparison.

[Vintagedeputy]

Originally Posted by z28jd

I could care less about Helton making it. I have no respect for any drunken drivers, especially not habitual offenders like him. Cooperstown only has one traffic light, so if he does eventually make it, be careful of the road if you go to his ceremony.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but I hope that the voters keep only his on-field activities in mind when voting. No one is perfect and what happens off the field should have zero effect on HOF voting. Its not the "Perfect Human Being" HOF.

[Chris-Counts]

By the numbers and compared those already inducted, Scott Rolen is clearly a Hall of Famer. It's not even close. Pie Traynor was once considered the greatest third baseman who ever lived. So was Jimmy Collins. Would you really rather have either one of those guys on your team instead of Rolen?

Many fans simply misunderstand what a Hall of Fame third baseman looks like. There are few third sackers history who had a great glove to go along with hitting for power and average, like Rolen. As a result, there are far fewer third baseman inducted in Cooperstown than any other position, including executives who never played the game (17 third baseman vs. 40 executives). I see this as an indictment that the Hall of Fame is as much of a good old boys club as it is an institution that truly honors the best who ever played the game.

[sreader3]

Originally Posted by z28jd

I could care less about Helton making it. I have no respect for any drunken drivers, especially not habitual offenders like him. Cooperstown only has one traffic light, so if he does eventually make it, be careful of the road if you go to his ceremony.

Seems pretty harsh to me.

So you are calling for the removal of Carlton Fisk, Tony LaRussa and other HOFers who have been convicted of DUIs?

Helton was the best fielding first baseman I ever saw. His hitting reflexes were incredible. Also a very nice man, although an introvert.

Edited to add:

Tiger Woods, Mike Tyson and Michael Phelps should all be removed from their respective Hall of Fames under the proposed standard.

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by sreader3

Seems pretty harsh to me.

So you are calling for the removal of Carlton Fisk, Tony LaRussa and other HOFers who have been convicted of DUIs?

Helton was the best fielding first baseman I ever saw. His hitting reflexes were incredible. Also a very nice man, although an introvert.

Edited to add:

Tiger Woods, Mike Tyson and Michael Phelps should all be removed from their respective Hall of Fames under the proposed standard.

He said he has no respect for drunk drivers, no where did he say Helton isn't a HOFer or that others should be removed from the HOF.

You might feel Helton is a nice man but the fact is that he's a convicted criminal who's lucky he never killed anyone.

I feel that should have no bearing on his HOF voting, since the HOF is already full of drug smugglers, wife beaters, racists, cheaters, etc.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by sreader3

Seems pretty harsh to me.

So you are calling for the removal of Carlton Fisk, Tony LaRussa and other HOFers who have been convicted of DUIs?

Helton was the best fielding first baseman I ever saw. His hitting reflexes were incredible. Also a very nice man, although an introvert.

Edited to add:

Tiger Woods, Mike Tyson and Michael Phelps should all be removed from their respective Hall of Fames under the proposed standard.

well , what if DUI ended up killing someone..if still ok to be in HOF than i agree


but if you dont agree then a hypocrit...because when DUI you cant control what will happen...shouldnt get credit for failing in the attempt...if ok with DUI and killing someone and going to Hall than fine..

[G1911]

What percent of the adult population have never in their life even once driven while over the legal alcohol limit or under the influence of any drugs? I’d be shocked if the number was over 40%.

The Hall of Fame honors baseball career achievement, not everybody’s pet crusade. We’ve gone from game rigging and steroid cheating to arguing to keep out anyone who dissents with anything or someone people don’t even know and just don’t like.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by G1911

What percent of the adult population have never in their life even once driven while over the legal alcohol limit or under the influence of any drugs? I’d be shocked if the number was over 40%.

The Hall of Fame honors baseball career achievement, not everybody’s pet crusade. We’ve gone from game rigging and steroid cheating to arguing to keep out anyone who dissents with anything or someone people don’t even know and just don’t like.

The 'everyone else is doing it' defense. If kill someone with DUI, i guess can try that as a defense and see how that works out. Afterall any of those 40% could of also killed someone when over the legal limit or under the influence of drugs as well.

[Misunderestimated]

Peter -- As you suggest, Andruw's "case" is largely about the fielding as a CF. The claim is that he was in the Willie Mays category as a CF before he got heavy and then couldn't/didn't stick around to run up his hitting stats to 500 HRs or even 2000 Hits. He got to the majors as a fleet teenage prodigy and was DHing by his 30's

I find the fielding stats kind of hard to digest but he put together a run (with Gold Gloves from 1998-2007) that was historically great.

There are plenty of lesser offensive players in the HOF because of their fielding excellence -- middle infield and catchers. I think he rates highest of all outfielders in lifetime DWAR (defensive WAR)

https://www.baseball-reference.com/l...f_career.shtml

and scores second all-time for all fielders in something called "Total Zone Runs" which is another combined fielding metric.
https://www.baseball-reference.com/l...f_career.shtml

SORRY ABOUT THE WAR STATS --- didn't see Darren's post or Butch's post until I finished mine -;(

Of course that's not to say that defensive excellence means that they should be in the HOF.


--- He has a son ("Druw") who is listed as a top prospect -- he too plays CF.

[G1911]

Jones 111 OPS+ really make his bat not look so good. He played in a high run environment in which his offense is not nearly as good as people think when looking at his homers.

I’m not sure there is a defense first outfielder in the hall. Harry Hooper? Hooper is probably his closest type in the Hall. Defensive star in his day, 114 OPS+, some decent raw hitting totals.

He wouldn’t be a horrific choice, don’t think he would be a great one. But it has little to do with actual performance anymore.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

Jones 111 OPS+ really make his bat not look so good. He played in a high run environment in which his offense is not nearly as good as people think when looking at his homers.

I’m not sure there is a defense first outfielder in the hall. Harry Hooper? Hooper is probably his closest type in the Hall. Defensive star in his day, 114 OPS+, some decent raw hitting totals.

He wouldn’t be a horrific choice, don’t think he would be a great one. But it has little to do with actual performance anymore.

Ashburn? I guess not, his hitting totals look better than I remembered. Just no power.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Ashburn?

Ashburn’s OPS+ is similar, but that’s because OBP and SLG are not on the same school and OPS heavily weighs slugging. Ashburn had a lot of league leads in offense and was well known as one of the very best top of the order guys. He is over the average HOFer in black and gray ink that counts only his bat, while Jones (HR/RBI once each, during his great season) and Hooper (nothing) are far below. I think Ashburn was batting average first, defense second in the public eye, but such a thing is very difficult to quantify exactly. Probably why the consensus today seems to be split on Jones, Hooper is a bad but not horrific pick, and Ashburn a lower tier but deserving HOFer. I think in this case I agree with what seems to be the general consensus.

[perezfan]

Why is Sheffield getting a better vote percentage than his fellow 'roiders...

A-Rod
Manny
McGwire
Sosa
Palmeiro
Bonds
Clemens

Do they think he was really better than those guys, or do they somehow consider him less of a "user"? Or is it something else?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Why is Sheffield getting a better vote percentage than his fellow 'roiders...

A-Rod
Manny
McGwire
Sosa
Palmeiro
Bonds
Clemens

Do they think he was really better than those guys, or do they somehow consider him less of a "user"? Or is it something else?

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/...fair-free-pass

Gary Sheffield
5 OF 6
With 509 career home runs to his name, it's not necessarily surprising to attach Gary Sheffield's name to the list of steroid users in the game of baseball. With that said, it is shocking that his name is not grouped with the likes of Barry Bonds, Sammy Sosa and Ken Caminiti.

After all, Sheffield trained with Bonds during the 2001-02 offseason and received PEDs directly from the hands of one of the most notorious steroid users in the game.

Four years removed from baseball, Sheffield will be eligible for the Hall of Fame in 2015. When the ballot comes around, will the BBWAA consider his admission of using a testosterone-based steroid supplied to him by BALCO?

Sheffield came clean about his use of "the cream", as well as pill forms of steroids, that he received from Bonds in a Sports Illustrated piece quoted by the San Francisco Chronicle in 2004.

"(Bonds) said, 'I got guys here, they can get your urine and blood and prescribe a vitamin specifically for your blood type and what your body needs.' And that's what I did."

Sheffield called his 2002 season (the season following his steroid use) his "worst year ever." He hit .307 with 25 home runs and 84 RBI. He dwarfed those numbers in 2003, batting .330 and slugging 39 home runs while driving in 132 runs.

You be the judge.

[Aaron Seefeldt]

Originally Posted by G1911

Jones 111 OPS+ really make his bat not look so good. He played in a high run environment in which his offense is not nearly as good as people think when looking at his homers.

I’m not sure there is a defense first outfielder in the hall. Harry Hooper? Hooper is probably his closest type in the Hall. Defensive star in his day, 114 OPS+, some decent raw hitting totals.

He wouldn’t be a horrific choice, don’t think he would be a great one. But it has little to do with actual performance anymore.

Ozzie Smith

[Peter_Spaeth]

Outfielder.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Aaron Seefeldt

Ozzie Smith

Try again.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Misunderestimated

Peter -- As you suggest, Andruw's "case" is largely about the fielding as a CF. The claim is that he was in the Willie Mays category as a CF before he got heavy and then couldn't/didn't stick around to run up his hitting stats to 500 HRs or even 2000 Hits. He got to the majors as a fleet teenage prodigy and was DHing by his 30's

I find the fielding stats kind of hard to digest but he put together a run (with Gold Gloves from 1998-2007) that was historically great.

There are plenty of lesser offensive players in the HOF because of their fielding excellence -- middle infield and catchers. I think he rates highest of all outfielders in lifetime DWAR (defensive WAR)

https://www.baseball-reference.com/l...f_career.shtml

and scores second all-time for all fielders in something called "Total Zone Runs" which is another combined fielding metric.
https://www.baseball-reference.com/l...f_career.shtml

SORRY ABOUT THE WAR STATS --- didn't see Darren's post or Butch's post until I finished mine -;(

Of course that's not to say that defensive excellence means that they should be in the HOF.


--- He has a son ("Druw") who is listed as a top prospect -- he too plays CF.

I hear you. But .254 BA yikes, and as you pointed out that's without much of a tail off.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I hear you. But .254 BA yikes, and as you pointed out that's without much of a tail off.

Centerfielder extraordinaire Cesar Geronimo had a career batting average of .258, and he is in the Hall of Fame*


* The Reds Hall of Fame

[butchie_t]

It’s all good, no need to apologize.

Originally Posted by Misunderestimated

SORRY ABOUT THE WAR STATS --- didn't see Darren's post or Butch's post until I finished mine -;(

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Misunderestimated

Peter -- As you suggest, Andruw's "case" is largely about the fielding as a CF. The claim is that he was in the Willie Mays category as a CF before he got heavy and then couldn't/didn't stick around to run up his hitting stats to 500 HRs or even 2000 Hits. He got to the majors as a fleet teenage prodigy and was DHing by his 30's

I find the fielding stats kind of hard to digest but he put together a run (with Gold Gloves from 1998-2007) that was historically great.

There are plenty of lesser offensive players in the HOF because of their fielding excellence -- middle infield and catchers. I think he rates highest of all outfielders in lifetime DWAR (defensive WAR)

https://www.baseball-reference.com/l...f_career.shtml

and scores second all-time for all fielders in something called "Total Zone Runs" which is another combined fielding metric.
https://www.baseball-reference.com/l...f_career.shtml

SORRY ABOUT THE WAR STATS --- didn't see Darren's post or Butch's post until I finished mine -;(

Of course that's not to say that defensive excellence means that they should be in the HOF.


--- He has a son ("Druw") who is listed as a top prospect -- he too plays CF.

As much as I like stats I'm going to go unscientific and say if Andruw Jones' defense gets him in then I want Devon White in. He was the best centerfielder I saw personally.

[earlywynnfan]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

As much as I like stats I'm going to go unscientific and say if Andruw Jones' defense gets him in then I want Devon White in. He was the best centerfielder I saw personally.

I'd say the same about Jim Edmonds!

[packs]

Jim Edmonds is a good name to bring up. His numbers best Jones (by a lot in batting average and OPS+) other than homers and RBIs and he has two less gloves but did win a championship. Difference in WAR is negligible too though in favor of Jones.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by earlywynnfan

I'd say the same about Jim Edmonds!

Originally Posted by packs

Jim Edmonds is a good name to bring up. His numbers best Jones (by a lot in batting average and OPS+) other than homers and RBIs and he has two less gloves but did win a championship. Difference in WAR is negligible too though in favor of Jones.

Edmonds bothers me though. Not that he was a bad fielder, but I saw him make two many late jumps and bad judgements that he then rectified with an amazing play. He was diving on plays where his predecessor (White) would have just easily glided to the ball.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

As much as I like stats I'm going to go unscientific and say if Andruw Jones' defense gets him in then I want Devon White in. He was the best centerfielder I saw personally.

Jones also hit 400+ homers, including 51 one year. He brought a lot to the table besides his defense.

[rats60]

TZR
Jones 253
White 133
Edmonds 80

dWAR
Jones 24.4
White 16.8
Edmonds .4

Jones was significantly better than White defensively and Edmonds was pretty average. It isn't just about making highlight plays (Edmonds and Griffey we're good at that), it is about range and catching balls that other players couldn't. Andruw Jones was the best defensive outfielder of all time and has a higher TZR than Ozzie Smith. If Ozzie's defense was good enough to elect him to the HOF, then Andruw Jones is a Hofer.

[Mozzie22]

Originally Posted by rats60

TZR
Jones 253
White 133
Edmonds 80

dWAR
Jones 24.4
White 16.8
Edmonds .4

Jones was significantly better than White defensively and Edmonds was pretty average. It isn't just about making highlight plays (Edmonds and Griffey we're good at that), it is about range and catching balls that other players couldn't. Andruw Jones was the best defensive outfielder of all time and has a higher TZR than Ozzie Smith. If Ozzie's defense was good enough to elect him to the HOF, then Andruw Jones is a Hofer.

Anyone that says Jim Edmonds was pretty average simply doesn't understand the game. Analytics be damned, Jim Edmonds was an exceptional defensive player, period.

As far as Jones goes, red flags and fireworks go off any time any ballplayer drops off the face of the planet as badly as he did statistically. You have to ask yourself how someone that good goes that bad so quickly.

Oh, and to compare Andruw Jones to Ozzie Smith defensively is futile. Ozzie Smith is the greatest defensive player in the history of baseball at any position.

[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I am not seeing the case for Andruw Jones at all. Unless you want to admit Delgado, Gallaraga, and god knows who else. Yes, I know he could play center field.

Yes, at a Willie Mays level. But also agree he's not hall-worthy.

Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I am not seeing the case for Andruw Jones at all. Unless you want to admit Delgado, Gallaraga, and god knows who else. Yes, I know he could play center field.

I haven't looked at the fielding data, but I have always been of the opinion that Andruw Jones was one of the greatest defensive players of all time. I value that highly.

[Jason19th]

I know it is of little actual consequence, but I miss the days when a solid player like J.J. Hardy would get a handful of votes. I though it was a nice recognition for a player who was a couple of time all star and had a nice career to get a few votes. My guess it was usually the hometown writers. Just seems sort of mean to see the zero %