Current HOF election results

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by packs

No, I'm not. I used his positional ranking to demonstrate what makes him a HOFer over others who ranked far lower in their positional rankings. I chose three specific names that were mentioned and showed their positional ranks verses Rolen's.

I think unlike you I am looking at Rolen as a third baseman among third basemen and considering his candidacy at his position.

I don't think WAR is particularly useful when it comes to pitchers and I wouldn't cite the stat in discussing them. I would look at ERA+, and I think you'll find Reuschel has a lower ERA+ than anyone on your list.

I never mentioned Rolen, you have no idea how I view him.

Ok, since you value ERA+ for pitchers, Johan Santana has a higher ERA+ 136 than, Randy Johnson 135, Greg Maddux 132, Sandy Koufax 131, Bob Gibson 127, Tom Seaver 127, Jim Palmer 125, and Nolan Ryan 112. Johan Santana must have been better than those HOFers, no?

[packs]

Originally Posted by Jim65

I never mentioned Rolen, you have no idea how I view him.

Ok, since you value ERA+ for pitchers, Johan Santana has a higher ERA+ 136 than, Randy Johnson 135, Greg Maddux 132, Sandy Koufax 131, Bob Gibson 127, Tom Seaver 127, Jim Palmer 125, and Nolan Ryan 112. Johan Santana must have been better than those HOFers, no?

You started talking about Rick Rueschel while in a discussion about Scott Rolen, so I guess I was wrong to think you weren't looking at him as a third baseman amongst third basemen?

I also think you've erred in choosing Johan Santana to make your point about ERA+. Santana won 2 Cy Youngs, three ERA titles and the pitching Triple Crown. That is the resume of a HOFer, he just had the misfortune of frequently being injured. What are you trying to say about him? I feel like we're getting back into Lou Gehrig wasn't the best player on his team territory.

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by packs

You started talking about Rick Rueschel while in a discussion about Scott Rolen, so I guess I was wrong to think you weren't looking at him as a third baseman amongst third basemen?

I mentioned Reuschel to show that WAR is not absolute, its just a tool. Having a higher WAR does not make a player better than another player, there are too many other stats to use just 1.

[Mike D.]

Originally Posted by Jim65

I mentioned Reuschel to show that WAR is not absolute, its just a tool. Having a higher WAR does not make a player better than another player, there are too many other stats to use just 1.

People like to use the example of Reuschel to say WAR isn't a very good stat. He's 35th all-time among SP's in BBR WAR, which does feel high.

I look at the list another way - if I look at the top 35 SP, there's only ONE that stands out as seeming not belonging. I think that shows it's actually a pretty decent stat.

I mean, look at the top 10, 25, 50, 100 WAR list...it's basically a list of the best players ever. Maybe you can nitpick a spot here or there, but you could do that with literally ANY ranking system.

Reuschel was 214-191 with a 3.37 ERA (114 ERA+) in about 3,550 IP. Right behind him on the list is John Smoltz, 213-155 with a 3.33 ERA (125 ERA+) in 3,475 IP).

I don't think Reuschel was better than Smoltz, but considering the quality of the teams on which they played, I can understand why they're ranked similarly (since WAR *is* a counting stat).