Current HOF election results

[packs]

The digs against Rolen don't really add up so it's not surprising no one wants to challenge each one on an individual basis. It is very easy to understand why Rolen was elected to the HOF. He is ranked as the 10th best third baseman of all time.

The other names mentioned:

Bobby Abreu - 21st best right fielder
Jim Edmonds - 15th best centerfielder
David Wright - 26th best third baseman

Whatever stat or single season you point to, nothing changes Rolen's status amongst his position and he was a better player at his position than David Wirght, Bobby Abreu or Jim Edmonds, which probably explains why he's in the HOF and they aren't.

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by packs

The digs against Rolen don't really add up so it's not surprising no one wants to challenge each one on an individual basis. It is very easy to understand why Rolen was elected to the HOF. He is ranked as the 10th best third baseman of all time.

The other names mentioned:

Bobby Abreu - 21st best right fielder
Jim Edmonds - 15th best centerfielder
David Wright - 26th best third baseman

Whatever stat or single season you point to, nothing changes Rolen's status amongst his position and he was a better player at his position than David Wirght, Bobby Abreu or Jim Edmonds, which probably explains why he's in the HOF and they aren't.

WAR is a tool and you are using it to say one player is absolutely better than another player. Rick Reuschel is the 37th ranked pitcher, higher than Jim Palmer, John Smoltz, Bob Feller, Juan Marichal, Don Drysdale, and Whitey Ford.

Does anyone really think Reuschel is better than all of those HOFers?

[packs]

Originally Posted by Jim65

WAR is a tool and you are using it to say one player is absolutely better than another player. Rick Reuschel is the 37th ranked pitcher, higher than Jim Palmer, John Smoltz, Bob Feller, Juan Marichal, Don Drysdale, and Whitey Ford.

Does anyone really think Reuschel is better than all of those HOFers?

No, I'm not. I used his positional ranking to demonstrate what makes him a HOFer over others who ranked far lower in their positional rankings. I chose three specific names that were mentioned and showed their positional ranks verses Rolen's.

I think unlike you I am looking at Rolen as a third baseman among third basemen and considering his candidacy at his position.

I don't think WAR is particularly useful when it comes to pitchers and I wouldn't cite the stat in discussing them. I would look at ERA+, and I think you'll find Reuschel has a lower ERA+ than anyone on your list.

[nolemmings]

The problem that sometimes arises in these threads is people picking and choosing what part of an argument they want to make and then disregarding the rest–sometimes innocently because they did not read every post or overlooked something said. My arguments against Scott Rolen were not based solely on the fact that I did not think he was even the best player on his team, although I do hold that belief. I quoted an article that led off with the reasons why he does not belong in the HOF, the first of which is that he did not finish in the top 10 in any meaningful category. That is extremely telling to me, and I have reiterated it, with no response that I have seen. While there were legitimate arguments as to whether Rolen was indeed the best on his team a time or two and that I was comparing apples to oranges, no one seems to rebut the fact that Rolen was not dominant and arguably not even superlative in any category.

A player’s ranking on his own team obviously does not by itself determine greatness, as pointed out and exemplified by Lou Gehrig and others. I understand that, in fact, I even stated that Graig Nettles is a better third baseman than Rolen, and most times Nettles was not even the second best player on his team. A quick comparison of the two is enlightening, in my opinion, but please understand that I do not necessarily consider Nettles a HOFer either, I merely point out his numbers and stress that he didn’t get more than about 8% of the HOF vote and dropped off the ballot early, yet Rolen, well, you know.

I will first admit that in looking at Rolen’s stats closely on Baseball Reference and not deferring to the author I had quoted, he did in fact finish in the top 10 in RBI twice, in runs scored twice, and OBP once, although never leading in anything. Graig Nettles once led the league in Home Runs, and finished in the top 10 five times. He matched Rolen’s two-time finishes in runs scored and one appearance on the leader board for OBP while three times making it there in RBI. Other similar measurements between the two players were roughly equal, although it should be remembered that Nettles hit 390 HR. As for advanced metrics, the two were nearly identical, but Nettles ranks just ahead of Rolen both in offensive WAR and defensive WAR. Yet Nettles never got a sniff at the HOF, and Rolen soon will be enshrined.

I acknowledge that I was a fan of Puff and was/am indifferent at best about Rolen. But I stand by my first statement on the subject in post #145– Scott Rolen: “Excellent player, borderline great, that's it IMO”.

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by packs

No, I'm not. I used his positional ranking to demonstrate what makes him a HOFer over others who ranked far lower in their positional rankings. I chose three specific names that were mentioned and showed their positional ranks verses Rolen's.

I think unlike you I am looking at Rolen as a third baseman among third basemen and considering his candidacy at his position.

I don't think WAR is particularly useful when it comes to pitchers and I wouldn't cite the stat in discussing them. I would look at ERA+, and I think you'll find Reuschel has a lower ERA+ than anyone on your list.

I never mentioned Rolen, you have no idea how I view him.

Ok, since you value ERA+ for pitchers, Johan Santana has a higher ERA+ 136 than, Randy Johnson 135, Greg Maddux 132, Sandy Koufax 131, Bob Gibson 127, Tom Seaver 127, Jim Palmer 125, and Nolan Ryan 112. Johan Santana must have been better than those HOFers, no?

[packs]

Originally Posted by Jim65

I never mentioned Rolen, you have no idea how I view him.

Ok, since you value ERA+ for pitchers, Johan Santana has a higher ERA+ 136 than, Randy Johnson 135, Greg Maddux 132, Sandy Koufax 131, Bob Gibson 127, Tom Seaver 127, Jim Palmer 125, and Nolan Ryan 112. Johan Santana must have been better than those HOFers, no?

You started talking about Rick Rueschel while in a discussion about Scott Rolen, so I guess I was wrong to think you weren't looking at him as a third baseman amongst third basemen?

I also think you've erred in choosing Johan Santana to make your point about ERA+. Santana won 2 Cy Youngs, three ERA titles and the pitching Triple Crown. That is the resume of a HOFer, he just had the misfortune of frequently being injured. What are you trying to say about him? I feel like we're getting back into Lou Gehrig wasn't the best player on his team territory.

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by packs

You started talking about Rick Rueschel while in a discussion about Scott Rolen, so I guess I was wrong to think you weren't looking at him as a third baseman amongst third basemen?

I mentioned Reuschel to show that WAR is not absolute, its just a tool. Having a higher WAR does not make a player better than another player, there are too many other stats to use just 1.

[Mike D.]

Originally Posted by Jim65

I mentioned Reuschel to show that WAR is not absolute, its just a tool. Having a higher WAR does not make a player better than another player, there are too many other stats to use just 1.

People like to use the example of Reuschel to say WAR isn't a very good stat. He's 35th all-time among SP's in BBR WAR, which does feel high.

I look at the list another way - if I look at the top 35 SP, there's only ONE that stands out as seeming not belonging. I think that shows it's actually a pretty decent stat.

I mean, look at the top 10, 25, 50, 100 WAR list...it's basically a list of the best players ever. Maybe you can nitpick a spot here or there, but you could do that with literally ANY ranking system.

Reuschel was 214-191 with a 3.37 ERA (114 ERA+) in about 3,550 IP. Right behind him on the list is John Smoltz, 213-155 with a 3.33 ERA (125 ERA+) in 3,475 IP).

I don't think Reuschel was better than Smoltz, but considering the quality of the teams on which they played, I can understand why they're ranked similarly (since WAR *is* a counting stat).

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by Jim65

WAR is a tool and you are using it to say one player is absolutely better than another player. Rick Reuschel is the 37th ranked pitcher, higher than Jim Palmer, John Smoltz, Bob Feller, Juan Marichal, Don Drysdale, and Whitey Ford.

Does anyone really think Reuschel is better than all of those HOFers?

All I know is I suddenly feel the desire start buying Rick Reuschel cards, especially the 1977 Topps card that also features his fellow flabby brother Paul.

Brian

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Jim65

I never mentioned Rolen, you have no idea how I view him.

Ok, since you value ERA+ for pitchers, Johan Santana has a higher ERA+ 136 than, Randy Johnson 135, Greg Maddux 132, Sandy Koufax 131, Bob Gibson 127, Tom Seaver 127, Jim Palmer 125, and Nolan Ryan 112. Johan Santana must have been better than those HOFers, no?

Johan Santana was a beast. Watched him pitch many times in the old Metrodome.

Originally Posted by brianp-beme

All I know is I suddenly feel the desire start buying Rick Reuschel cards, especially the 1977 Topps card that also features his fellow flabby brother Paul.

Brian

Rick started out his minor league career here in the little town I live in. He went 9-2 in 1970 in a ballpark not too far from my house.

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Johan Santana was a beast. Watched him pitch many times in the old Metrodome.

I like Johan too but does anyone think he is better than those other pitchers based on 1 stat? I don't

[tod41]

Originally Posted by packs

The digs against Rolen don't really add up so it's not surprising no one wants to challenge each one on an individual basis. It is very easy to understand why Rolen was elected to the HOF. He is ranked as the 10th best third baseman of all time.

The other names mentioned:

Bobby Abreu - 21st best right fielder
Jim Edmonds - 15th best centerfielder
David Wright - 26th best third baseman

Whatever stat or single season you point to, nothing changes Rolen's status amongst his position and he was a better player at his position than David Wirght, Bobby Abreu or Jim Edmonds, which probably explains why he's in the HOF and they aren't.

David Wright is not yet eligible. I think that explains him right now.

[RCMcKenzie]

I'm okay with Nettles and Ron Cey and Madlock going in. I would put Arod and Bonds and those guys too.