Team with the most borderline Hall of Famers

D. Bergin · #1 02-06-2023, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bblair_2002

I'm not a Yankees fan,yet it's always bothered me that Pettitte,Jeter,Posada and Rivera were known as the Core Four,yet Bernie Williams was excluded from that group.

I'm a Yankees fan...and it's always bothered me to.

63.2 Offensive War is pretty impressive. His defensive metrics kill him though. Odd for a guy with 4 Gold Gloves.

Watching him everyday, his arm was subpar. He covered a lot of ground in Centerfield earlier in his career, but I suspect he began to lose some of his vision, and wasn't tracking balls well for the 2nd half of his career, and more.

I know he got laser surgery on his eyes at one point, and I think it took him awhile to adjust to it. Eventually it helped him at the plate, but I suspect it threw off a bit of his depth perception playing the outfield.

Bernie was also a horrible base stealer (a good base runner, but a horrible base stealer), so maybe he was just bad at timing his jumps.

This is all hypothetical of course, from somebody who went from glasses, to contact lenses, to laser surgery myself. I remember having a horrible time tracking balls when I popped in the contact lenses. Had to ditch them mid-game a few times to go back to my glasses. Didn't have much experience playing ball after my laser surgery to make a proper comparison though.

packs · #2 02-07-2023, 08:10 AM

Bernie was the man. I don't know that he's a HOFer but in my opinion he's one of the best players not in the Hall. It's criminal he only lasted two ballots.

Carter08 · #3 02-07-2023, 11:47 AM

Mets probably have the most players that should have made the hall of fame if they didn�t get in their own way. Probably traded away the most hall of famers too. Sigh.

mrreality68 · #4 02-07-2023, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carter08

Mets probably have the most players that should have made the hall of fame if they didn�t get in their own way. Probably traded away the most hall of famers too. Sigh.

not sure if they would have the most but I agree it seems anyone that was HOF caliber they seemed to trade away

The Yankees and their history probably do have the most however, i still feel most on the list are not worthy of the hall or border line at best.

Regardless of the bar being lowered by some other players that also should not have gotten in

Mike D. · #5 02-07-2023, 03:24 PM

Fun list, and I agree the Yankees list is likely among the longest.

Off the top of my head, a few Red Sox:

1. Dwight Evans (3x AS, 8x GG 67.2 WAR)
2. Luis Tiant (229-172, 3.30 ERA 66.1 WAR) - also played for NYY
3. Dustin Pedroia (ROY, MVP, 4 x AS/GG 51.9 WAR)
4. Reggie Smith (7x AS, GG 64.5 WAR)

I'm guessing steroid guys like Clemens (another guy who also played for NYY) and Manny don't count.

D. Bergin · #6 02-07-2023, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike D.

Fun list, and I agree the Yankees list is likely among the longest.

Off the top of my head, a few Red Sox:

1. Dwight Evans (3x AS, 8x GG 67.2 WAR)
2. Luis Tiant (229-172, 3.30 ERA 66.1 WAR) - also played for NYY
3. Dustin Pedroia (ROY, MVP, 4 x AS/GG 51.9 WAR)
4. Reggie Smith (7x AS, GG 64.5 WAR)

I'm guessing steroid guys like Clemens (another guy who also played for NYY) and Manny don't count.

You can probably add Fred Lynn to that list to. Had a relatively long career, but injuries robbed him of a lot of stats. You would have thought he was going to be a lock by his mid-twenties.

Mike D. · #7 02-07-2023, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

You can probably add Fred Lynn to that list to. Had a relatively long career, but injuries robbed him of a lot of stats. You would have thought he was going to be a lock by his mid-twenties.

Yeah, based on year's in Boston, he was well on his way. His 30's weren't nearly as kind, with only about half the WAR of his 20's.

cgjackson222 · #8 02-07-2023, 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

You can probably add Fred Lynn to that list to. Had a relatively long career, but injuries robbed him of a lot of stats. You would have thought he was going to be a lock by his mid-twenties.

I would also maybe add Smokey Joe Wood as borderline HOFer for Boston.

He had a very short career, with only 11 years in the League, but he had some big numbers. He was an absurd 34-5 in 1912 and he ranks 15th all-time in both career winning % (.6724) as well as ERA+ (146) (including Negro League leaders). He actually has a better career ERA+ than Clemens, who is right behind with 143.

Peter_Spaeth · #9 02-09-2023, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

You can probably add Fred Lynn to that list to. Had a relatively long career, but injuries robbed him of a lot of stats. You would have thought he was going to be a lock by his mid-twenties.

Nomar.

cgjackson222 · #10 02-07-2023, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike D.

Fun list, and I agree the Yankees list is likely among the longest.

Off the top of my head, a few Red Sox:

1. Dwight Evans (3x AS, 8x GG 67.2 WAR)
2. Luis Tiant (229-172, 3.30 ERA 66.1 WAR) - also played for NYY
3. Dustin Pedroia (ROY, MVP, 4 x AS/GG 51.9 WAR)
4. Reggie Smith (7x AS, GG 64.5 WAR)

I'm guessing steroid guys like Clemens (another guy who also played for NYY) and Manny don't count.

I think Dwight Evans and Tiant belong in the HOF.
Reggie Smith is close.

Mike D. · #11 02-07-2023, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

I think Dwight Evans and Tiant belong in the HOF.
Reggie Smith is close.

I'm really interested to see how 2nd basemen are considered going forward. Kent just aged off the ballot. Kinsler's WAR is similar to Pedroia's but with less hardware. Utley debuts on the ballot next year.

egri · #12 01-23-2025, 12:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike D.

Fun list, and I agree the Yankees list is likely among the longest.

Off the top of my head, a few Red Sox:

1. Dwight Evans (3x AS, 8x GG 67.2 WAR)
2. Luis Tiant (229-172, 3.30 ERA 66.1 WAR) - also played for NYY
3. Dustin Pedroia (ROY, MVP, 4 x AS/GG 51.9 WAR)
4. Reggie Smith (7x AS, GG 64.5 WAR)

I'm guessing steroid guys like Clemens (another guy who also played for NYY) and Manny don't count.

Also Dom DiMaggio and Curt Schilling. Jason Varitek doesn't get credit from the voters for anchoring the 2004 and 2007 teams, and Tony Conigliaro was on that path before his injury, same with Dale Alexander.

cgjackson222 · #13 02-11-2023, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carter08

Mets probably have the most players that should have made the hall of fame if they didn’t get in their own way. Probably traded away the most hall of famers too. Sigh.

Mets still have a nice group of borderline HOFers.
Many probably would go in as a member of another team, but all have played significant time with the Mets.

1) Keith Hernandez (5x All Star, MVP, 2 World Series, Batting Title, 60.3 bWAR)
2) David Wright (7x All Star, 49.2 bWAR)
3) Carlos Delgado (2x All Star, ML POY, 44.4 bWAR)
4) Carlos Beltran (ROY, 9x All Star, Word Series, 70.1 bWAR)
5) Robin Ventura (2x All Star, 56.1 bWAR)
6) John Olerud (2x All Star, 2 World Series, Battling Title, 58.2 bWAR)
7) Darryl Strawberry (ROY, 8x All Star, 3 World Series, 42.2 bWAR)
8) George Foster (5x All Star, MVP, 2 World Series, 44.1 bWAR)
9) Jeff Kent (5x All Star, MVP, 55.4 bWAR)
10) Curtis Granderson (3x All Star, 47.2 bWAR)
11) David Cone (5x All Star, Cy Young, 5 World Series, Perfect Game, 62.3 bWAR)
12) Dwight Gooden (ROY, 4x All Star, 2 World Series, triple crown, 53 bWAR)
13) Jerry Koosman (2x All Star, World Series, 53.6 bWAR)
14) Johan Santana (4x All Star, 2x Cy Young, Triple Crown, 3x ERA Title, 51.7 bWAR)
15) Bartolo Colon (4x All Star, Cy Young, 46.2 bWAR)
16) Billy Wagner (7x All Star, Rolaids Reliever, 422 Saves, 187 ERA+)
17) John Franco (4x All Star, 2x Rolaids Reliever, 424 saves, 138 ERA+)

I personally think Hernandez, Cone and maybe Kent have strong cases for the Hall.
I think Beltran eventually gets in.

cgjackson222 · #14 01-13-2025, 03:17 PM

The Hall of Commons thread got me thinking about how the Houston Astros have a few borderline guys:

1) Lance Berkman: Career OPS+ of 144, 366 HRs, bWAR of 51.9
2) Jim Wynn: Career OPS+ of 129, 3x All Star, bWAR of 55.8
3) Jos� Cruz: bWAR 54.4
4) Cesar Cedeno: 4x All-Star, 5x Gold Glove, bWAR 53.1
5) Ken Caminiti: MVP, 3x All Star, 3x Gold Glove, Silver Slugger
6) Billy Wagner: 422 Career Saves, ERA+ of 187, WHIP of .998. Highest strikeout rate of 33.2% of any pitcher with 900 innings pitched.

Others worth noting: Joe Niekro, Mike Scott, JR Richard.

Looks like Wagner might get into the Hall this year, so he would come off the list.

Peter_Spaeth · #15 01-13-2025, 03:49 PM

Yankees

Mattingly
Munson
Posada
B Williams
Pettite
Randolph
Nettles
Cone

cgjackson222 · #16 01-13-2025, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Yankees

Mattingly
Munson
Posada
B Williams
Pettite
Randolph
Nettles
Cone

Yes, Yankees probably have the most, as per the 1st entry in this thread.

tod41 · #17 01-22-2025, 11:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

Mets still have a nice group of borderline HOFers.
Many probably would go in as a member of another team, but all have played significant time with the Mets.

1) Keith Hernandez (5x All Star, MVP, 2 World Series, Batting Title, 60.3 bWAR)
2) David Wright (7x All Star, 49.2 bWAR)
3) Carlos Delgado (2x All Star, ML POY, 44.4 bWAR)
4) Carlos Beltran (ROY, 9x All Star, Word Series, 70.1 bWAR)
5) Robin Ventura (2x All Star, 56.1 bWAR)
6) John Olerud (2x All Star, 2 World Series, Battling Title, 58.2 bWAR)
7) Darryl Strawberry (ROY, 8x All Star, 3 World Series, 42.2 bWAR)
8) George Foster (5x All Star, MVP, 2 World Series, 44.1 bWAR)
9) Jeff Kent (5x All Star, MVP, 55.4 bWAR)
10) Curtis Granderson (3x All Star, 47.2 bWAR)
11) David Cone (5x All Star, Cy Young, 5 World Series, Perfect Game, 62.3 bWAR)
12) Dwight Gooden (ROY, 4x All Star, 2 World Series, triple crown, 53 bWAR)
13) Jerry Koosman (2x All Star, World Series, 53.6 bWAR)
14) Johan Santana (4x All Star, 2x Cy Young, Triple Crown, 3x ERA Title, 51.7 bWAR)
15) Bartolo Colon (4x All Star, Cy Young, 46.2 bWAR)
16) Billy Wagner (7x All Star, Rolaids Reliever, 422 Saves, 187 ERA+)
17) John Franco (4x All Star, 2x Rolaids Reliever, 424 saves, 138 ERA+)

I personally think Hernandez, Cone and maybe Kent have strong cases for the Hall.
I think Beltran eventually gets in.

Rusty Staub - Although his best years were with the Expos.

Tug McGraw - Split evenly with Mets and Phillies

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