Hey, pennant guys

ooo-ribay · #1 02-08-2023, 08:40 AM

Get your popcorn ready!

bocca001 · #2 02-08-2023, 10:25 AM

Every time one of those football runner pennants shows up on ebay, I click on the link to see if there is a label or stamp. As many of you know, that design was used for high school, college, and pro teams. There are so many, but never (from my experience) a label. After Kyle posted about Epstein, a quick Worthpoint search yielded one with a clear label. Really cool. They also have a pennant with a kicker design (although not the super common kicker design, which I think Kyle has attributed to Trench). This Fordham pennant has an Epstein label too.

UKCardGuy · #3 02-08-2023, 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bocca001

Every time one of those football runner pennants shows up on ebay, I click on the link to see if there is a label or stamp. As many of you know, that design was used for high school, college, and pro teams. There are so many, but never (from my experience) a label. After Kyle posted about Epstein, a quick Worthpoint search yielded one with a clear label. Really cool. They also have a pennant with a kicker design (although not the super common kicker design, which I think Kyle has attributed to Trench). This Fordham pennant has an Epstein label too.

Great stuff Kyle. Thanks. I'll be busy updating my pennant catalog this weekend.

perezfan · #4 02-08-2023, 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UKCardGuy

Great stuff Kyle. Thanks. I'll be busy updating my pennant catalog this weekend.

Kyle and Marc too.... Thanks to you both for solving yet another gonfalon mystery.

ooo-ribay · #5 02-08-2023, 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by perezfan

Kyle and Marc too.... Thanks to you both for solving yet another gonfalon mystery.

Not gonna lie�had to google �gonfalon.�

Domer05 · #6 02-08-2023, 11:02 PM

Right. So, who saw it being Epstein Novelty Co.? Raise your hand!

I have seen their pennants/labels for years; but, always assumed they were a small novelty distributor serving the New York area that sold, among other products, felt pennants. But, they must've actually been a manufacturer of pennants.

Epstein Novelty Co. goes back to the 1910s, when they primarily made badges and buttons. You'll see WWI-themed buttons bearing their mark and address on the reverse. Did they make pennants back then, too? Unclear.

Seems to me they likely began making pennants in the 1930s. The earliest one I can date was from the 1941 Rose Bowl. Their hey day seems to be the late 1940s, early 1950s. As Mark mentioned, they were absolutely huge in terms of market share: pro baseball and football pennants; but also collegiate and high school pennants, too. Most impressively, their pennants were not limited to NYC teams by any stretch; they served the entire nation.

They were a lot like Trench in that respect.

They're quality, however, was nothing like Trench's. By the late 1940s they ceased using labels, tassels; and, their designs were always monochrome. Their artwork, moreover, was super generic. Nothing team-specific. Just the same generic player used over and over again.

Case in point: our "sliding runner" and "the Heisman" series. I never realized these were made by the same maker until I saw these two Brooklyn Dodger pennants. Note the less than perfect lettering; especially the "O" in "DODGERS". It's a bit ... rough.

Kind of explains why they occasionally fused scraps of felt together to make a spine....

To really solve the mystery, however, we needed one of these pennants from either series to also have a label or maker's mark on them. Last month I came across the Columbia pennant mark highlighted earlier--with an Epstein tag. That sealed the deal for me. I'm only aware of one other from "the Heisman" series with an Epstein label; and it's this Cornell pennant, complete with tassels, just like the Columbia one.

Anyway, mystery solved.

Domer05 · #7 02-08-2023, 11:35 PM

As Mark noted, Epstein Novelty Co. also produced a series featuring a punter kicking a football across the length of the pennant. I'm a little hesitant to call it a "series" because there are slight variations in these designs; but, overall, the concept is the same; and, many bear Epstein's label.

Let's name this the "the kicking punter" series

bocca001 · #8 02-09-2023, 07:51 AM

The only way that I attempt to help Kyle is by filling up his inbox with email listings every time I see a pennant with a label or some kind of pennant brochure. But I never saw the Columbia pennant. That's all Kyle. I do remember sending him a pic of an Epstein label from a Texas A&M pennant a few years ago, but never thought it would be the maker of these series. So Epstein did make more generic college pennants too.

Kyle- I always thought that the left footed kicker pennants (below) were made by the same company as the runner pennant (now identified as Epstein). But I think you have attributed this style to Trench. I have posted two examples below, with one clearly being older than the other. The older one seems very similar to the Epstein runner pennants with respect to materials and feel. Just wondering how/why you have associated the left footed kicker design with Trench. It's probably too weird for Epstein to have two different kicker versions (given how steadfastly they stuck to the runner and slider designs).

The newer version of the kicker pennant has additional details in the background. I know that these exist for some NFL teams. I think Fballguy has a pic of a Raiders pennant with this image on his website. Santa Clara stopped playing major football in 1952, so the pennant is likely 1952 or earlier. I suppose the two kicker pennants could have been made by different companies, with the newer being a copy.

thetahat · #9 02-09-2023, 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Domer05

Right. So, who saw it being Epstein Novelty Co.? Raise your hand!

I have seen their pennants/labels for years; but, always assumed they were a small novelty distributor serving the New York area that sold, among other products, felt pennants. But, they must've actually been a manufacturer of pennants.

Epstein Novelty Co. goes back to the 1910s, when they primarily made badges and buttons. You'll see WWI-themed buttons bearing their mark and address on the reverse. Did they make pennants back then, too? Unclear.

Seems to me they likely began making pennants in the 1930s. The earliest one I can date was from the 1941 Rose Bowl. Their hey day seems to be the late 1940s, early 1950s. As Mark mentioned, they were absolutely huge in terms of market share: pro baseball and football pennants; but also collegiate and high school pennants, too. Most impressively, their pennants were not limited to NYC teams by any stretch; they served the entire nation.

They were a lot like Trench in that respect.

They're quality, however, was nothing like Trench's. By the late 1940s they ceased using labels, tassels; and, their designs were always monochrome. Their artwork, moreover, was super generic. Nothing team-specific. Just the same generic player used over and over again.

Case in point: our "sliding runner" and "the Heisman" series. I never realized these were made by the same maker until I saw these two Brooklyn Dodger pennants. Note the less than perfect lettering; especially the "O" in "DODGERS". It's a bit ... rough.

Kind of explains why they occasionally fused scraps of felt together to make a spine....

To really solve the mystery, however, we needed one of these pennants from either series to also have a label or maker's mark on them. Last month I came across the Columbia pennant mark highlighted earlier--with an Epstein tag. That sealed the deal for me. I'm only aware of one other from "the Heisman" series with an Epstein label; and it's this Cornell pennant, complete with tassels, just like the Columbia one.

Anyway, mystery solved.

Great stuff, keep it coming!

Will disagree about the allegedly generic nature of their pennants. At least as far as baseball is concerned. By my count 13 of the 16 teams have alternatives with a team-specific logo. Also many football. They also gave us the highly underrated full body roster pennant �

ooo-ribay · #10 02-09-2023, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thetahat

Great stuff, keep it coming!

Will disagree about the allegedly generic nature of their pennants. At least as far as baseball is concerned. By my count 13 of the 16 teams have alternatives with a team-specific logo. Also many football. They also gave us the highly underrated full body roster pennant �

So, this is "an Epstein"? How you you/we know that?

rlevy · #11 02-10-2023, 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UKCardGuy

Great stuff Kyle. Thanks. I'll be busy updating my pennant catalog this weekend.

Gary, I added a page to my Sandy Koufax memorabilia website with photos of my Dodger pennants. There may be 1 or 2 you don't have yet in your catalog. LMK if you need better pictures of any.

Rick

ooo-ribay · #12 02-10-2023, 10:02 AM

As usual, I may be somewhat confused...

My first sliding runner pic is definitely an Epstein. Second pic as well? And isn't the 3rd, some other maker entirely?

thetahat · #13 02-10-2023, 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

As usual, I may be somewhat confused...

My first sliding runner pic is definitely an Epstein. Second pic as well? And isn't the 3rd, some other maker entirely?

Yes, yes, probably no

My guess is that you will see a distinct stitch on the back of the bottom pennant compared to the other two. Also the middle pennant has the nearly identical banner graphic as the Dodgers pennant pictured above

ooo-ribay · #14 02-10-2023, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thetahat

Yes, yes, probably no

So, you mean yes, Epstein; yes, Epstein and probably not Epstein? I only ask because I had asked if the third was a different maker and you said �probably no.�

ooo-ribay · #15 02-09-2023, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bocca001

Every time one of those football runner pennants shows up on ebay, I click on the link to see if there is a label or stamp. As many of you know, that design was used for high school, college, and pro teams. There are so many, but never (from my experience) a label. After Kyle posted about Epstein, a quick Worthpoint search yielded one with a clear label. Really cool. They also have a pennant with a kicker design (although not the super common kicker design, which I think Kyle has attributed to Trench). This Fordham pennant has an Epstein label too.

I wonder if so few labels survived because they were sewn on so hap-hazardly, as on the Columbia pennant?

ooo-ribay · #16 02-09-2023, 03:28 PM

And, finally, this... My google skills are not up to par with some of you guys, but I found this from September 10, 1938. Check out "Football Novelties." Funny, too, that there's an ad for another maker - Amco.

UKCardGuy · #17 02-09-2023, 04:30 PM

Finding some info about Epstein Novelty

https://daytoninmanhattan.blogspot.c...65-bowery.html

Quote:

After World War I druggist M. Diugasch, who dealt in �chemicals, colors and dyestuffs,� would be here for several years, sharing the first floor space with the Epstein Novelty Company. Epstein manufactured canes, among other wholesale items.

It also looks like the owner of Epstein Novelty got into some trouble from tax evasion in the 1950s.

https://law.resource.org/pub/us/case...313.11100.html

Domer05 · #18 02-11-2023, 12:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UKCardGuy

Finding some info about Epstein Novelty

https://daytoninmanhattan.blogspot.c...65-bowery.html

It also looks like the owner of Epstein Novelty got into some trouble from tax evasion in the 1950s.

https://law.resource.org/pub/us/case...313.11100.html

Wait, can we go back to Mr. Epstein's alleged legal troubles?

As I read this, the defendant/petitioner/appellant was a guy called William B. Stayback--not Epstein. Mr. Stayback was convicted for filing false tax returns for his business, which apparently functioned under a multitude of different names; none of which were called Epstein Novelty Co.

It looks like Stayback did business with Epstein; perhaps he supplied them with raw materials for the latter's production needs. It was income from these sales to Epstein (and others) that this Stayback fellow failed to report as income; and, apparently, went to prison for....

I just want to defend my man Epstein from any further libel by this thread, is all

He's still guilty of being a tightwad. Greg has proven that beyond a reasonable doubt.

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