WW3 Please SAY NO!

[Smarti5051]

Using the "James Phillips quote machine," I believe this accurately reflects Irv's position on the Russia-Ukraine conflict, as I am quoting Irv directly:

"Putin is the aggressor. . . . [T]he U.S. [is] so heavily invested in Ukraine[,] that would justify supporting Zelenskyy. . . . [M]any are willing to send their son's and daughters to Ukraine, to help Zelenskyy out."

I am shocked to read this! I disagree with Irv's position and do not believe we should be sending American troops to fight in Ukraine. Based on the quote above, it seems like Irv might be motivated by profit, not peace.

Obviously, this is all malarky, and everyone with the benefit of reading what Irv actually said knows it. But, anybody reading or reposting the quote above without his original post will have no idea how manipulated it is. It underscores how dangerous it is to premise your ideas on a completely falsified account of what the originator of information actually said.

[irv]

Originally Posted by Smarti5051

Using the "James Phillips quote machine," I believe this accurately reflects Irv's position on the Russia-Ukraine conflict, as I am quoting Irv directly:

"Putin is the aggressor. . . . [T]he U.S. [is] so heavily invested in Ukraine[,] that would justify supporting Zelenskyy. . . . [M]any are willing to send their son's and daughters to Ukraine, to help Zelenskyy out."

I am shocked to read this! I disagree with Irv's position and do not believe we should be sending American troops to fight in Ukraine. Based on the quote above, it seems like Irv might be motivated by profit, not peace.

Obviously, this is all malarky, and everyone with the benefit of reading what Irv actually said knows it. But, anybody reading or reposting the quote above without his original post will have no idea how manipulated it is. It underscores how dangerous it is to premise your ideas on a completely falsified account of what the originator of information actually said.

I am confused by your post, Scott? I am not saying and/or suggesting the above bold at all, quite the opposite actually.
I think it is crazy that it, the Ukraine war, has actually escalated to this point.
Like I've asked numerous times now, why is the U.S. so invested in Ukraine?

It is nothing but a Proxy war with Russia and they've been planning this for sometime now but someone got in the way for 4 years.

NATO, the U.S. and Ukraine are the aggressors here.
China is currently doing business with Mexico.
What do you suppose would happen if China put up military bases and missle silo's along the U.S./Mexican border?
Both side of the political fence would react as expected.
This is something the U.S. and their funded media tries to keep from us.

I am no Putin sympathizer but he is not the aggressor here nor did he start this but those that are, like I said, are going to get us into WW3.

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by irv

I am confused by your post, Scott? I am not saying and/or suggesting the above bold at all, quite the opposite actually.
I think it is crazy that it, the Ukraine war, has actually escalated to this point.
Like I've asked numerous times now, why is the U.S. so invested in Ukraine

I think he is saying that someone nefarious could quote your post out of context to make it say the opposite of what you actually mean. Not that any members here would do that .

[Smarti5051]

Originally Posted by Cliff Bowman

I think he is saying that someone nefarious could quote your post out of context to make it say the opposite of what you actually mean. Not that any members here would do that .

Well, yes, but more precisely, I was drawing a parallel to the quote of Zelenskyy being tortured by the Twitter user Irv referenced in his original statement. Much like my tortured quote of Irv, JamesPhillips bastardized a quote from Zelenskyy to suggest he said something very different from what he actually said. Irv then uses this mis-quote as support for part of his argument. I was pointing out that relying on a bad source for factual information can be dangerous.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by irv

It is nothing but a Proxy war with Russia and they've been planning this for sometime now but someone got in the way for 4 years.

NATO, the U.S. and Ukraine are the aggressors here.

Putin has said the biggest tragedy of the 20th century was the disillusion of the USSR. His plans in Ukraine are clearly to conquer as many countries and grab as much land as possible. Early in the war, Lukashenko laid out the plan to invade Moldova after conquering Ukraine. Medvedev has even suggested Russia should move int east Germany.

The war is in Ukraine because Russia invaded Ukraine. They have been bombing hospitals, apartments, schools, and power plants (in winter) to kill as many civilians as possible. There are thousands of documented instances of torture, civilian executions, rape as policy, and other various war crimes.

When you say the USA, NATO, and Ukraine are the aggressors, you are dead wrong. It's like blaming Poland for being invaded by Hitler.

[irv]

Originally Posted by Smarti5051

Well, yes, but more precisely, I was drawing a parallel to the quote of Zelenskyy being tortured by the Twitter user Irv referenced in his original statement. Much like my tortured quote of Irv, JamesPhillips bastardized a quote from Zelenskyy to suggest he said something very different from what he actually said. Irv then uses this mis-quote as support for part of his argument. I was pointing out that relying on a bad source for factual information can be dangerous.

Yes, the twitter bit is snapshot of the full conversation and just like I posted, it was posted out of context, but at the same time if you can't see that Zelenskyy is just trying to elicit sympathy and instill fear in the American Public so the billions keep flowing, then I can't help you.

[Smarti5051]

Originally Posted by irv

Yes, the twitter bit is snapshot of the full conversation and just like I posted, it was posted out of context, but at the same time if you can't see that Zelenskyy is just trying to elicit sympathy and instill fear in the American Public so the billions keep flowing, then I can't help you.

I 100% agree with the part about Ukraine appealing to Americans by pointing out that they are a huge underdog to a world power that is attacking them mercilessly and further pointing out that alot of NATO countries that are former USSR territories could result in USA being "forced" to be involved with troops on the ground.

I disagree with your assertion that you originally posted that the quote you used was "posted out of context." You claimed, as did the Twitter poster, that Zelinskyy was calling upon America to send fresh troops to Ukraine to fight Russia. That is just flat out false, and if you read your own post, nowhere in there do I see any effort to clarify that the quote is false. Instead, you specifically reference an equally false quote from JamesPhillips on Twitter. When called out on it, you, like JamesPhillips, basically double down by saying you know it is out of context and false, but it doesn't matter because you believe that is what he meant or that he is just trying to scare Americans. No, if you are going to quote somebody, quote them in context and correctly, not what you are trying to extrapolate from what they are saying to support a position.

[irv]

Originally Posted by Smarti5051

I 100% agree with the part about Ukraine appealing to Americans by pointing out that they are a huge underdog to a world power that is attacking them mercilessly and further pointing out that alot of NATO countries that are former USSR territories could result in USA being "forced" to be involved with troops on the ground.

I disagree with your assertion that you originally posted that the quote you used was "posted out of context." You claimed, as did the Twitter poster, that Zelinskyy was calling upon America to send fresh troops to Ukraine to fight Russia. That is just flat out false, and if you read your own post, nowhere in there do I see any effort to clarify that the quote is false. Instead, you specifically reference an equally false quote from JamesPhillips on Twitter. When called out on it, you, like JamesPhillips, basically double down by saying you know it is out of context and false, but it doesn't matter because you believe that is what he meant or that he is just trying to scare Americans. No, if you are going to quote somebody, quote them in context and correctly, not what you are trying to extrapolate from what they are saying to support a position.

Well, I understand your point but if you watch the vid, Zelenskyy says the U.S. "will" have to send troops, not they must send them. I gathered from the tidbit he was alluding what was to come "if" not now but I can see how it can be misconstrued like that.

And LOL on Russia attacking Ukraine "Mercilessly" You should educate yourself on what Zelenskyy and Ukraine are doing to it's own citizens, especially blacks, gays and other minorities/ethnicities.

[irv]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Putin has said the biggest tragedy of the 20th century was the disillusion of the USSR. His plans in Ukraine are clearly to conquer as many countries and grab as much land as possible. Early in the war, Lukashenko laid out the plan to invade Moldova after conquering Ukraine. Medvedev has even suggested Russia should move int east Germany.

The war is in Ukraine because Russia invaded Ukraine. They have been bombing hospitals, apartments, schools, and power plants (in winter) to kill as many civilians as possible. There are thousands of documented instances of torture, civilian executions, rape as policy, and other various war crimes.

When you say the USA, NATO, and Ukraine are the aggressors, you are dead wrong. It's like blaming Poland for being invaded by Hitler.

Yes, not denying that but like I wrote above, how do you think the U.S. would react if China, even without the help of NATO, placed military bases and missle silo's along the U.S. border?

Those other things you wrote, Mark, are straight out of the MSM feeds. The oldest trick in the book to make Putin and Russia look a bunch of barbarians to drum up support and dwell up sympathy for Ukraine.
Watch the vid I posted earlier/yesterday/whenever about Ukraine. It should be an eye opener. Azov Nazi's are a large part of Zelenskyy's army/support groups. They have been torturing/killing citizens in the eastern parts of Ukraine for years now.

This NBC journalist is now on a Ukrainian Nazis hit list all because he questioned some Russian citizens in Crimea about Ukraine and Ukraine govt (Zelenskyy/the Nazi's) didn't like it. Real fine caring people over there.
https://twitter.com/KanekoaTheGreat/...46414926225408
https://myrotvorets-center.translate..._x_tr_pto=wapp

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by irv

Yes, not denying that but like I wrote above, how do you think the U.S. would react if China, even without the help of NATO, placed military bases and missle silo's along the U.S. border?

If the purpose was first strike, we wouldn't like it. If the purpose was defensive, like air defense systems, it wouldn't matter since the USA does not reserve the right to invade Mexico.

NATO is a defensive organization. Proof of that is that NATO hasn't sent troops or air forces into combat. They have only provided munitions for Ukraine to defend their own territory. If NATO was an aggressive force, they'd be flying sorties over Moscow daily.

Originally Posted by irv

Those other things you wrote, Mark, are straight out of the MSM feeds. The oldest trick in the book to make Putin and Russia look a bunch of barbarians to drum up support and dwell up sympathy for Ukraine.

Are you saying Russia is NOT bombing hospitals, schools, and other civilians targets like power plants? Because Putin himself is bragging about making life as miserable as possible on Ukrainian civilians.

Look, I agree with you about the mismanagement of the Covid situation, beginning with its origin. But the MSM is not ALWAYS wrong. When Putin himself brags about the devastation his army is wreaking on Ukraine, it seems like quite a stretch to say that all the many various news outlets are wrong when they report on it.

Originally Posted by irv

Watch the vid I posted earlier/yesterday/whenever about Ukraine. It should be an eye opener. Azov Nazi's are a large part of Zelenskyy's army/support groups. They have been torturing/killing citizens in the eastern parts of Ukraine for years now.

How familiar are you with Wagner and its origins? It seems a bit ridiculous to say Putin is sending Wagner into Ukraine because he is so outraged with "Nazis." To Russia, de-Nazification is just another term for killing people and stealing their land.

Originally Posted by irv

This NBC journalist is now on a Ukrainian Nazis hit list all because he questioned some Russian citizens in Crimea about Ukraine and Ukraine govt (Zelenskyy/the Nazi's) didn't like it. Real fine caring people over there.

Russians who speak out against Putin and his regime are plummeting and splatting by the dozens, and that is fact. Actually happening. But you're more concerned with an alleged threat to one person.

So, my question to you is this: Do you believe Russia has been deliberately bombing civilian targets in Ukraine, as Putin says?

[irv]

Originally Posted by Mark17

If the purpose was first strike, we wouldn't like it. If the purpose was defensive, like air defense systems, it wouldn't matter since the USA does not reserve the right to invade Mexico.

NATO is a defensive organization. Proof of that is that NATO hasn't sent troops or air forces into combat. They have only provided munitions for Ukraine to defend their own territory. If NATO was an aggressive force, they'd be flying sorties over Moscow daily.



Are you saying Russia is NOT bombing hospitals, schools, and other civilians targets like power plants? Because Putin himself is bragging about making life as miserable as possible on Ukrainian civilians.

Look, I agree with you about the mismanagement of the Covid situation, beginning with its origin. But the MSM is not ALWAYS wrong. When Putin himself brags about the devastation his army is wreaking on Ukraine, it seems like quite a stretch to say that all the many various news outlets are wrong when they report on it.




How familiar are you with Wagner and its origins? It seems a bit ridiculous to say Putin is sending Wagner into Ukraine because he is so outraged with "Nazis." To Russia, de-Nazification is just another term for killing people and stealing their land.



Russians who speak out against Putin and his regime are plummeting and splatting by the dozens, and that is fact. Actually happening. But you're more concerned with an alleged threat to one person.

So, my question to you is this: Do you believe Russia has been deliberately bombing civilian targets in Ukraine, as Putin says?

Again, Putin did not start this. It's a proxy war against Russia, nothing more.
Is Ukraine even an ally?
113 BILLION and counting. Why, and why such a vested interest? Hunter is on the board of Burisma. Ukraine has bio labs.
Why is the U.S. so against Russia invading Ukraine if you say it is unprovoked when that is all the U.S. has done for years itself?
Have they now had a change of heart, taken the moral high ground and a way of paying repentance is to now help Ukraine?
You're being played, Mark. We are going to get into WW3 because your President and his band of Merrymen love war, nothing more.
https://www.tiktok.com/@cristinabrun..._t=8aHWsM4axDy

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by irv

Again, Putin did not start this. It's a proxy war against Russia, nothing more.

Putin did start this. First step was in 2014 when he annexed Crimea. Now he's trying to take several more bites. It has become a proxy war against Russia that Putin started.

Suppose we did as you suggest. Let Putin take Ukraine. Do you think he would stop there, Neville Chamberlain? Or would he then move into Moldova, the Baltics, and maybe Poland? And we'd just sit back and think it was a safer world, with Putin "de-Nazifying" eastern Europe?

Originally Posted by irv

113 BILLION and counting. Why, and why such a vested interest?

It's a fraction of our defense budget. Usually, our military spending doesn't accomplish much. The money we are spending now is an attempt to maintain a stable Europe. Putin needs to be stopped.

Originally Posted by irv

Hunter is on the board of Burisma. Ukraine has bio labs. Why is the U.S. so against Russia invading Ukraine if you say it is unprovoked when that is all the U.S. has done for years itself?
Have they now had a change of heart, taken the moral high ground and a way of paying repentance is to now help Ukraine?

Hunter is a criminal, the USA supports various labs, including the one in Wuhan, unfortunately. I'm not aware of the USA invading and annexing land from other countries recently. I'm aware of the USA building schools and hospitals, but not intentionally blowing them up.

Originally Posted by irv

You're being played, Mark. We are going to get into WW3 because your President and his band of Merrymen love war, nothing more.

We are preventing WW3 by nipping it in the bud, so to speak. What about "appeasement doesn't work" don't you understand? Look, I get it. You're a contrarian. Government is always dishonest, MSM always lies, things are never as they seem. You are being played by your own bias.

You didn't answer my question. Do you believe Putin is purposely attacking civilian targets in Ukraine to cause as much pain as possible on the people there, as Putin brags?

And I have another question. If Putin is successful in capturing Ukraine, or parts of it, do you think he stops there?

[G1911]

Originally Posted by irv

Again, Putin did not start this. It's a proxy war against Russia, nothing more.
Is Ukraine even an ally?
113 BILLION and counting. Why, and why such a vested interest? Hunter is on the board of Burisma. Ukraine has bio labs.
Why is the U.S. so against Russia invading Ukraine if you say it is unprovoked when that is all the U.S. has done for years itself?
Have they now had a change of heart, taken the moral high ground and a way of paying repentance is to now help Ukraine?
You're being played, Mark. We are going to get into WW3 because your President and his band of Merrymen love war, nothing more.
https://www.tiktok.com/@cristinabrun..._t=8aHWsM4axDy

I think I get what you mean, but this is where language needs to be precise. Putin clearly chose to start the war. Ukraine did not attack Russia, Russia invaded. It didn't happen in a vacuum though, which I imagine is your point. The US appears to have backed the 2014 coup, which sparked Russia to take the Crimea just days later, to install a more friendly regime on Russia's border. The eastern provinces have been trying to secure independence for years and western Ukraine has been using force and violence to keep them attached. Russia, obviously, does not want a US client state on its border. The US would never allow a Russian client state on our border. It is much more complicated than a couple sentences, but the main narrative likes to skip over the entire history and paint a rather absurdist picture of simple evil incarnate, as we do every single time we are at war or proxy war with another state. We have seen this play out over and over and over and over.




If we are in favor of a people's right to rule themselves, we must be for Ukraine but also in favor of the east being able to choose for themselves as well. I find it difficult to find a sensible philosophy that means the US should bankroll or fight Ukraine's war of defense, but Ukraine is allowed to do whatever it wants to provinces that do not want to be part of Ukraine. Every time the US has a painful go of it, we all renounce the war we once supported and say that the US should stop being the world police. And then every time something happens, we say we need to fight it or fund it. And then the cycle repeats itself. This sure feels like another loop of this circle at this point, but time will tell.

I know not what to really make of this war, accurate information is difficult to find in the middle of a conflict and most of the media is simply printing Ukraine's propaganda; no nations propaganda about a war it is in has ever in world history been particularly accurate information. It does seem that Russia is still fighting with an arm tied behind its back, though I don't know why. Short of using WMD, there is little risk of further escalation, the west is already bankrolling and supplying the war at large scale. We will learn much in 10 years that isn't really known now.

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by Mark17

It's like blaming Poland for being invaded by Hitler.

Hitler wasn’t the only one to invade Poland in September 1939.

[carlsonjok]

Originally Posted by irv

NATO, the U.S. and Ukraine are the aggressors here.

Irv has a point here. Zelensky should have never bloodied Putin's fist by repeatedly beating it with his face.

[BobbyStrawberry]

Originally Posted by carlsonjok

Irv has a point here. Zelensky should have never bloodied Putin's fist by repeatedly beating it with his face.

Irv's commitment to the bit is admirable. I keep wondering when he's going to break character but it hasn't happened yet.

[AustinMike]

Originally Posted by BobbyStrawberry

Irv's commitment to the bit is admirable. I keep wondering when he's going to break character but it hasn't happened yet.

I know you're only semi-serious, but it will never happen. What you see is what you get. Irv seriously believes everything he thinks. He is the world's arbitrator of what is true and what is a lie. We at Net54 are lucky that he is blessing us with his unique talent.

[Carter08]

Originally Posted by AustinMike

I know you're only semi-serious, but it will never happen. What you see is what you get. Irv seriously believes everything he thinks. He is the world's arbitrator of what is true and what is a lie. We at Net54 are lucky that he is blessing us with his unique talent.

This morning added the bit about global warming being a hoax because…snow. Have to love that logic.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Carter08

This morning added the bit about global warming being a hoax because…snow. Have to love that logic.

If you don't get that snow at Dales house proves global warming is a hoax I can't help you.