WW3 Please SAY NO!

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by irv

It is nothing but a Proxy war with Russia and they've been planning this for sometime now but someone got in the way for 4 years.

NATO, the U.S. and Ukraine are the aggressors here.

Putin has said the biggest tragedy of the 20th century was the disillusion of the USSR. His plans in Ukraine are clearly to conquer as many countries and grab as much land as possible. Early in the war, Lukashenko laid out the plan to invade Moldova after conquering Ukraine. Medvedev has even suggested Russia should move int east Germany.

The war is in Ukraine because Russia invaded Ukraine. They have been bombing hospitals, apartments, schools, and power plants (in winter) to kill as many civilians as possible. There are thousands of documented instances of torture, civilian executions, rape as policy, and other various war crimes.

When you say the USA, NATO, and Ukraine are the aggressors, you are dead wrong. It's like blaming Poland for being invaded by Hitler.

[irv]

Originally Posted by Smarti5051

Well, yes, but more precisely, I was drawing a parallel to the quote of Zelenskyy being tortured by the Twitter user Irv referenced in his original statement. Much like my tortured quote of Irv, JamesPhillips bastardized a quote from Zelenskyy to suggest he said something very different from what he actually said. Irv then uses this mis-quote as support for part of his argument. I was pointing out that relying on a bad source for factual information can be dangerous.

Yes, the twitter bit is snapshot of the full conversation and just like I posted, it was posted out of context, but at the same time if you can't see that Zelenskyy is just trying to elicit sympathy and instill fear in the American Public so the billions keep flowing, then I can't help you.

[Smarti5051]

Originally Posted by irv

Yes, the twitter bit is snapshot of the full conversation and just like I posted, it was posted out of context, but at the same time if you can't see that Zelenskyy is just trying to elicit sympathy and instill fear in the American Public so the billions keep flowing, then I can't help you.

I 100% agree with the part about Ukraine appealing to Americans by pointing out that they are a huge underdog to a world power that is attacking them mercilessly and further pointing out that alot of NATO countries that are former USSR territories could result in USA being "forced" to be involved with troops on the ground.

I disagree with your assertion that you originally posted that the quote you used was "posted out of context." You claimed, as did the Twitter poster, that Zelinskyy was calling upon America to send fresh troops to Ukraine to fight Russia. That is just flat out false, and if you read your own post, nowhere in there do I see any effort to clarify that the quote is false. Instead, you specifically reference an equally false quote from JamesPhillips on Twitter. When called out on it, you, like JamesPhillips, basically double down by saying you know it is out of context and false, but it doesn't matter because you believe that is what he meant or that he is just trying to scare Americans. No, if you are going to quote somebody, quote them in context and correctly, not what you are trying to extrapolate from what they are saying to support a position.

[irv]

Originally Posted by Smarti5051

I 100% agree with the part about Ukraine appealing to Americans by pointing out that they are a huge underdog to a world power that is attacking them mercilessly and further pointing out that alot of NATO countries that are former USSR territories could result in USA being "forced" to be involved with troops on the ground.

I disagree with your assertion that you originally posted that the quote you used was "posted out of context." You claimed, as did the Twitter poster, that Zelinskyy was calling upon America to send fresh troops to Ukraine to fight Russia. That is just flat out false, and if you read your own post, nowhere in there do I see any effort to clarify that the quote is false. Instead, you specifically reference an equally false quote from JamesPhillips on Twitter. When called out on it, you, like JamesPhillips, basically double down by saying you know it is out of context and false, but it doesn't matter because you believe that is what he meant or that he is just trying to scare Americans. No, if you are going to quote somebody, quote them in context and correctly, not what you are trying to extrapolate from what they are saying to support a position.

Well, I understand your point but if you watch the vid, Zelenskyy says the U.S. "will" have to send troops, not they must send them. I gathered from the tidbit he was alluding what was to come "if" not now but I can see how it can be misconstrued like that.

And LOL on Russia attacking Ukraine "Mercilessly" You should educate yourself on what Zelenskyy and Ukraine are doing to it's own citizens, especially blacks, gays and other minorities/ethnicities.

[irv]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Putin has said the biggest tragedy of the 20th century was the disillusion of the USSR. His plans in Ukraine are clearly to conquer as many countries and grab as much land as possible. Early in the war, Lukashenko laid out the plan to invade Moldova after conquering Ukraine. Medvedev has even suggested Russia should move int east Germany.

The war is in Ukraine because Russia invaded Ukraine. They have been bombing hospitals, apartments, schools, and power plants (in winter) to kill as many civilians as possible. There are thousands of documented instances of torture, civilian executions, rape as policy, and other various war crimes.

When you say the USA, NATO, and Ukraine are the aggressors, you are dead wrong. It's like blaming Poland for being invaded by Hitler.

Yes, not denying that but like I wrote above, how do you think the U.S. would react if China, even without the help of NATO, placed military bases and missle silo's along the U.S. border?

Those other things you wrote, Mark, are straight out of the MSM feeds. The oldest trick in the book to make Putin and Russia look a bunch of barbarians to drum up support and dwell up sympathy for Ukraine.
Watch the vid I posted earlier/yesterday/whenever about Ukraine. It should be an eye opener. Azov Nazi's are a large part of Zelenskyy's army/support groups. They have been torturing/killing citizens in the eastern parts of Ukraine for years now.

This NBC journalist is now on a Ukrainian Nazis hit list all because he questioned some Russian citizens in Crimea about Ukraine and Ukraine govt (Zelenskyy/the Nazi's) didn't like it. Real fine caring people over there.
https://twitter.com/KanekoaTheGreat/...46414926225408
https://myrotvorets-center.translate..._x_tr_pto=wapp

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by irv

Yes, not denying that but like I wrote above, how do you think the U.S. would react if China, even without the help of NATO, placed military bases and missle silo's along the U.S. border?

If the purpose was first strike, we wouldn't like it. If the purpose was defensive, like air defense systems, it wouldn't matter since the USA does not reserve the right to invade Mexico.

NATO is a defensive organization. Proof of that is that NATO hasn't sent troops or air forces into combat. They have only provided munitions for Ukraine to defend their own territory. If NATO was an aggressive force, they'd be flying sorties over Moscow daily.

Originally Posted by irv

Those other things you wrote, Mark, are straight out of the MSM feeds. The oldest trick in the book to make Putin and Russia look a bunch of barbarians to drum up support and dwell up sympathy for Ukraine.

Are you saying Russia is NOT bombing hospitals, schools, and other civilians targets like power plants? Because Putin himself is bragging about making life as miserable as possible on Ukrainian civilians.

Look, I agree with you about the mismanagement of the Covid situation, beginning with its origin. But the MSM is not ALWAYS wrong. When Putin himself brags about the devastation his army is wreaking on Ukraine, it seems like quite a stretch to say that all the many various news outlets are wrong when they report on it.

Originally Posted by irv

Watch the vid I posted earlier/yesterday/whenever about Ukraine. It should be an eye opener. Azov Nazi's are a large part of Zelenskyy's army/support groups. They have been torturing/killing citizens in the eastern parts of Ukraine for years now.

How familiar are you with Wagner and its origins? It seems a bit ridiculous to say Putin is sending Wagner into Ukraine because he is so outraged with "Nazis." To Russia, de-Nazification is just another term for killing people and stealing their land.

Originally Posted by irv

This NBC journalist is now on a Ukrainian Nazis hit list all because he questioned some Russian citizens in Crimea about Ukraine and Ukraine govt (Zelenskyy/the Nazi's) didn't like it. Real fine caring people over there.

Russians who speak out against Putin and his regime are plummeting and splatting by the dozens, and that is fact. Actually happening. But you're more concerned with an alleged threat to one person.

So, my question to you is this: Do you believe Russia has been deliberately bombing civilian targets in Ukraine, as Putin says?

[irv]

Originally Posted by Mark17

If the purpose was first strike, we wouldn't like it. If the purpose was defensive, like air defense systems, it wouldn't matter since the USA does not reserve the right to invade Mexico.

NATO is a defensive organization. Proof of that is that NATO hasn't sent troops or air forces into combat. They have only provided munitions for Ukraine to defend their own territory. If NATO was an aggressive force, they'd be flying sorties over Moscow daily.



Are you saying Russia is NOT bombing hospitals, schools, and other civilians targets like power plants? Because Putin himself is bragging about making life as miserable as possible on Ukrainian civilians.

Look, I agree with you about the mismanagement of the Covid situation, beginning with its origin. But the MSM is not ALWAYS wrong. When Putin himself brags about the devastation his army is wreaking on Ukraine, it seems like quite a stretch to say that all the many various news outlets are wrong when they report on it.




How familiar are you with Wagner and its origins? It seems a bit ridiculous to say Putin is sending Wagner into Ukraine because he is so outraged with "Nazis." To Russia, de-Nazification is just another term for killing people and stealing their land.



Russians who speak out against Putin and his regime are plummeting and splatting by the dozens, and that is fact. Actually happening. But you're more concerned with an alleged threat to one person.

So, my question to you is this: Do you believe Russia has been deliberately bombing civilian targets in Ukraine, as Putin says?

Again, Putin did not start this. It's a proxy war against Russia, nothing more.
Is Ukraine even an ally?
113 BILLION and counting. Why, and why such a vested interest? Hunter is on the board of Burisma. Ukraine has bio labs.
Why is the U.S. so against Russia invading Ukraine if you say it is unprovoked when that is all the U.S. has done for years itself?
Have they now had a change of heart, taken the moral high ground and a way of paying repentance is to now help Ukraine?
You're being played, Mark. We are going to get into WW3 because your President and his band of Merrymen love war, nothing more.
https://www.tiktok.com/@cristinabrun..._t=8aHWsM4axDy

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by irv

Again, Putin did not start this. It's a proxy war against Russia, nothing more.

Putin did start this. First step was in 2014 when he annexed Crimea. Now he's trying to take several more bites. It has become a proxy war against Russia that Putin started.

Suppose we did as you suggest. Let Putin take Ukraine. Do you think he would stop there, Neville Chamberlain? Or would he then move into Moldova, the Baltics, and maybe Poland? And we'd just sit back and think it was a safer world, with Putin "de-Nazifying" eastern Europe?

Originally Posted by irv

113 BILLION and counting. Why, and why such a vested interest?

It's a fraction of our defense budget. Usually, our military spending doesn't accomplish much. The money we are spending now is an attempt to maintain a stable Europe. Putin needs to be stopped.

Originally Posted by irv

Hunter is on the board of Burisma. Ukraine has bio labs. Why is the U.S. so against Russia invading Ukraine if you say it is unprovoked when that is all the U.S. has done for years itself?
Have they now had a change of heart, taken the moral high ground and a way of paying repentance is to now help Ukraine?

Hunter is a criminal, the USA supports various labs, including the one in Wuhan, unfortunately. I'm not aware of the USA invading and annexing land from other countries recently. I'm aware of the USA building schools and hospitals, but not intentionally blowing them up.

Originally Posted by irv

You're being played, Mark. We are going to get into WW3 because your President and his band of Merrymen love war, nothing more.

We are preventing WW3 by nipping it in the bud, so to speak. What about "appeasement doesn't work" don't you understand? Look, I get it. You're a contrarian. Government is always dishonest, MSM always lies, things are never as they seem. You are being played by your own bias.

You didn't answer my question. Do you believe Putin is purposely attacking civilian targets in Ukraine to cause as much pain as possible on the people there, as Putin brags?

And I have another question. If Putin is successful in capturing Ukraine, or parts of it, do you think he stops there?

[Peter_Spaeth]

I had a contrarian friend in law school who claimed the Berlin Wall was built to keep West Berliners from fleeing east. Saying Putin did not start this war reminds me of that.

[irv]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Putin did start this. First step was in 2014 when he annexed Crimea. Now he's trying to take several more bites. It has become a proxy war against Russia that Putin started.

Suppose we did as you suggest. Let Putin take Ukraine. Do you think he would stop there, Neville Chamberlain? Or would he then move into Moldova, the Baltics, and maybe Poland? And we'd just sit back and think it was a safer world, with Putin "de-Nazifying" eastern Europe?



It's a fraction of our defense budget. Usually, our military spending doesn't accomplish much. The money we are spending now is an attempt to maintain a stable Europe. Putin needs to be stopped.





Hunter is a criminal, the USA supports various labs, including the one in Wuhan, unfortunately. I'm not aware of the USA invading and annexing land from other countries recently. I'm aware of the USA building schools and hospitals, but not intentionally blowing them up.



We are preventing WW3 by nipping it in the bud, so to speak. What about "appeasement doesn't work" don't you understand? Look, I get it. You're a contrarian. Government is always dishonest, MSM always lies, things are never as they seem. You are being played by your own bias.

You didn't answer my question. Do you believe Putin is purposely attacking civilian targets in Ukraine to cause as much pain as possible on the people there, as Putin brags?

And I have another question. If Putin is successful in capturing Ukraine, or parts of it, do you think he stops there?

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I had a contrarian friend in law school who claimed the Berlin Wall was built to keep West Berliners from fleeing east. Saying Putin did not start this war reminds me of that.

Well, prior to the western sponsored coup in Ukraine, Russia got along just fine with neighbors in Ukraine.
Deals and promises were broken. NATO continued and continues to move east. But Putin is just expected to ignore those, say no big deal?
Who I believe is still your current president who is calling the shots.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ES4jslRzQwI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XqgNOvFMvg

[G1911]

Originally Posted by irv

Again, Putin did not start this. It's a proxy war against Russia, nothing more.
Is Ukraine even an ally?
113 BILLION and counting. Why, and why such a vested interest? Hunter is on the board of Burisma. Ukraine has bio labs.
Why is the U.S. so against Russia invading Ukraine if you say it is unprovoked when that is all the U.S. has done for years itself?
Have they now had a change of heart, taken the moral high ground and a way of paying repentance is to now help Ukraine?
You're being played, Mark. We are going to get into WW3 because your President and his band of Merrymen love war, nothing more.
https://www.tiktok.com/@cristinabrun..._t=8aHWsM4axDy

I think I get what you mean, but this is where language needs to be precise. Putin clearly chose to start the war. Ukraine did not attack Russia, Russia invaded. It didn't happen in a vacuum though, which I imagine is your point. The US appears to have backed the 2014 coup, which sparked Russia to take the Crimea just days later, to install a more friendly regime on Russia's border. The eastern provinces have been trying to secure independence for years and western Ukraine has been using force and violence to keep them attached. Russia, obviously, does not want a US client state on its border. The US would never allow a Russian client state on our border. It is much more complicated than a couple sentences, but the main narrative likes to skip over the entire history and paint a rather absurdist picture of simple evil incarnate, as we do every single time we are at war or proxy war with another state. We have seen this play out over and over and over and over.




If we are in favor of a people's right to rule themselves, we must be for Ukraine but also in favor of the east being able to choose for themselves as well. I find it difficult to find a sensible philosophy that means the US should bankroll or fight Ukraine's war of defense, but Ukraine is allowed to do whatever it wants to provinces that do not want to be part of Ukraine. Every time the US has a painful go of it, we all renounce the war we once supported and say that the US should stop being the world police. And then every time something happens, we say we need to fight it or fund it. And then the cycle repeats itself. This sure feels like another loop of this circle at this point, but time will tell.

I know not what to really make of this war, accurate information is difficult to find in the middle of a conflict and most of the media is simply printing Ukraine's propaganda; no nations propaganda about a war it is in has ever in world history been particularly accurate information. It does seem that Russia is still fighting with an arm tied behind its back, though I don't know why. Short of using WMD, there is little risk of further escalation, the west is already bankrolling and supplying the war at large scale. We will learn much in 10 years that isn't really known now.

[Kzoo]

Originally Posted by G1911

It does seem that Russia is still fighting with an arm tied behind its back, though I don't know why. We will learn much in 10 years that isn't really known now.

I agree there is far more at play.....and why did Ukraine have all those secret bio-labs? I think our government is really freaking out they were exposed......and all of a sudden this past week, Congress unanimously decided to agree Covid escaped from the Wuhan lab, after 3 years of denial.

[irv]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Right, your mind is locked into being contrarian. It doesn't really matter how smart someone is, if they've surrendered their ability (or desire) to think for themselves, rather than being stuck into a knee-jerk belief system that has them believing, or in your case, disbelieving, everything.

I will ask for a third or fourth time: Do you believe Russia is purposely bombing civilian targets, to kill and make miserable as many Ukrainian citizens as possible? I really don't expect an answer, because it's become obvious my question is threatening to you and your thought process.

You keep mentioning how unfair Ukraine has been to some of its citizens, while evading the fact Putin is trying to bomb them into oblivion. The reason Putin hasn't completely destroyed Ukraine by now (with tactical nukes) is because NATO and the USA stand in the way.

By the way, Biden isn't my guy and I disagree with him on most things. I didn't vote for him. But unlike partisans, I can give credit for good policy when it's due. The concept is known as thinking for myself. One party isn't always right, or wrong, and neither is the MSM.

Defeating Putin's expansion in Europe is essential.

I did answer above, in a roundabout way, however, but I guess you missed that?
Of course Putin is bombing areas, that's what usually happens in wars, to starve people out, etc. but I don't believe for one second it is anything like our media is portraying.
Here, watch this vid and pay particular attention at the 50 second or so point. This person, who ever he is (NATO/U.S. general?) is shocked and dumbfounded this journalist knows so much, knows the truth.
Did you see this on the evening news?
https://youtu.be/SKUtg-4BxMY

Like I said earlier or alluded too, there is something else going on here, something else that we will likely never know?
Joe hasn't been to your border in 2 yrs and apparently can't find Ohio on a map either, but he sure has no problem finding and flying to Ukraine whenever he wants?
Regardless, all this back and forth is futile. Neither you or I will ever fully, 100% know what is truly going on but I do know one thing, which many choose to ignore, is the fact that the U.S. has started more wars than any other nation on earth, and it is not even close.

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by Kzoo

......and all of a sudden this past week, Congress unanimously decided to agree Covid escaped from the Wuhan lab, after 3 years of denial.

That was the Department Of Energy, there are 213 current Representatives and 51 current Senators who wouldn’t do that if you put a gun to their heads regardless of what evidence you presented to them.

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by Mark17

It's like blaming Poland for being invaded by Hitler.

Hitler wasn’t the only one to invade Poland in September 1939.