Health of Asset Class - Over/Under 1955 Topps Koufax PSA 9

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by JimC

I assume by now most have seen that there is also a PSA 9 Koufax rookie in REA. Ryan, I'm curious - - does having two on the market at the same time alter your expectations?

Good question Jim. Honestly, I am not sure. My knee jerk reaction is that the REA 9 should negatively impact the Goldin one, but who knows - maybe people hold off on the REA one knowing they have a second bite on the Goldin one. In my experience, the second one usually goes for less than the first. That said, the cards I bid on are usually much rarer than a 55 Koufax, even in a 9, and they are less “commodity cards”, meaning a thinner overall audience. As a result, by eliminating the winner from the first one, there is usually less competition on the next one and it goes for less.

A great example of this is the t206 Speaker Drum. In May of 2021, Heritage auctioned off a PSA 1 t206 Speaker Drum. I won it for $31,200. Three months later REA auctions another, arguably nicer, PSA 1 t206 Speaker Drum and Luke stole it for $24,600! That is almost certainly because I was not a bidder, having already just “won” one. As an aside, I think there are only 3-5 Speaker Drums, compared to the 25+ psa 9/10 Koufax.

BTW- I am not a player for either Koufax.

[Bigdaddy]

Even before seeing the REA Koufax, I'm on the side of 'under'. Just a gut feel.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Good question Jim. Honestly, I am not sure. My knee jerk reaction is that the REA 9 should negatively impact the Goldin one, but who knows - maybe people hold off on the REA one knowing they have a second bite on the Goldin one. In my experience, the second one usually goes for less than the first. That said, the cards I bid on are usually much rarer than a 55 Koufax, even in a 9, and they are less “commodity cards”, meaning a thinner overall audience. As a result, by eliminating the winner from the first one, there is usually less competition on the next one and it goes for less.

A great example of this is the t206 Speaker Drum. In May of 2021, Heritage auctioned off a PSA 1 t206 Speaker Drum. I won it for $31,200. Three months later REA auctions another, arguably nicer, PSA 1 t206 Speaker Drum and Luke stole it for $24,600! That is almost certainly because I was not a bidder, having already just “won” one. As an aside, I think there are only 3-5 Speaker Drums, compared to the 25+ psa 9/10 Koufax.

BTW- I am not a player for either Koufax.

Not to steal or hijack your thread, but maybe add on to your initial question? How do both cards fair in regard to your $345K over/under query, AND which AH's Koufax rookie card ends up selling for more, including the BP?

I had initially guessed the '55 Topps Koufax card being sold by Goldin would be under, and I'm going to guess REA's will be under as well. Now I initially want to guess REA's Koufax card will go for a higher amount than Goldin's, but I'm wondering if for a card of this value if the Goldin vault doesn't possibly impact the final sales price? Someone using Goldin's vault can absolutely escape sales tax, whereas an REA buyer may end up with a significant sales tax liability of tens of thousands of dollars, which I can only assume they may factor into what they end up bidding. So, I'll reluctantly guess the Goldin Koufax rookie card ends up selling for more.

And though I understand and agree with Ryan's thinking and logic regarding a second, later sale usually going for less, that mostly works best when you have exactly the same bidders in both auctions. I'm not so sure there may be serious bidders in only one or the other auction, but not in both, for whatever the reason(s).

[raulus]

Originally Posted by BobC

Not to steal or hijack your thread, but maybe add on to your initial question? How do both cards fair in regard to your $345K over/under query, AND which AH's Koufax rookie card ends up selling for more, including the BP?

I had initially guessed the '55 Topps Koufax card being sold by Goldin would be under, and I'm going to guess REA's will be under as well. Now I initially want to guess REA's Koufax card will go for a higher amount than Goldin's, but I'm wondering if for a card of this value if the Goldin vault doesn't possibly impact the final sales price? Someone using Goldin's vault can absolutely escape sales tax, whereas an REA buyer may end up with a significant sales tax liability of tens of thousands of dollars, which I can only assume they may factor into what they end up bidding. So, I'll reluctantly guess the Goldin Koufax rookie card ends up selling for more.

Unless I’m completely barmy, I understand that a buyer on any platform can ship to most any vault, and with most (all?) of the vaults being located in no sales tax states, a buyer of the REA piece could enjoy similar sales tax treatment that a buyer enjoys when buying from Goldin with a straight deposit into the captive Goldin/CU vault.

Ergo, anyone looking to save by using a vault should be able to do so even when buying on platforms that don’t have an integrated vault.

Having said that, my preference is for all y’all to have to pay sales tax, so that I can benefit from the inherent bidding advantage that comes with living in a state with no sales tax.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by raulus

Unless I’m completely barmy, I understand that a buyer on any platform can ship to most any vault, and with most (all?) of the vaults being located in no sales tax states, a buyer of the REA piece could enjoy similar sales tax treatment that a buyer enjoys when buying from Goldin with a straight deposit into the captive Goldin/CU vault.

Ergo, anyone looking to save by using a vault should be able to do so even when buying on platforms that don’t have an integrated vault.

Exactly right, and totally agree. But, I'm also thinking in terms of there maybe being some bidders who prefer to only bid with Goldin, and vice versa. And I'm going further out on a limb and guessing a Goldin fan/bidder is more likely to use Goldin's vault than an REA fan/bidder is likely to use any vault. Other than that, no real rationale, just mostly pure guessing.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by BobC

Exactly right, and totally agree. But, I'm also thinking in terms of there maybe being some bidders who prefer to only bid with Goldin, and vice versa. And I'm going further out on a limb and guessing a Goldin fan/bidder is more likely to use Goldin's vault than an REA fan/bidder is likely to use any vault. Other than that, no real rationale, just mostly pure guessing.

You could be right. Obviously the integrated auction houses cum vault operators hope that the convenience of their integrated operation makes their vault much more attractive to potential users.

And I suspect you’re right that the user base may vary a bit between these two AHs, although I also suspect the profile of buyers at the 6-figure level between these two platforms varies less.

And with a 5-figure sales tax bill in the offing, I suspect a vault might seem less odious to the purchaser.

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by BobC

Exactly right, and totally agree. But, I'm also thinking in terms of there maybe being some bidders who prefer to only bid with Goldin, and vice versa. And I'm going further out on a limb and guessing a Goldin fan/bidder is more likely to use Goldin's vault than an REA fan/bidder is likely to use any vault. Other than that, no real rationale, just mostly pure guessing.

There's no greater disparity of an approach to business than there is between Brian and Goldin, some people identify with Brian's approach some people identify with Goldins approach, when it comes to pre war I think Brian's approach resonates with more folks.

[raulus]

But after almost 1 whole day of bidding, the REA version is up to $210 (with the juice).

Naturally, most of these auctions tend to see a lot of action early, as we all get our initial bids in. Usually followed by a lull as we all try to assess what we really want, and how high we're willing to go to get it.

And then during the last couple of days the bidding goes nuts again as one by one the earlier bidders drop out until the winner stands alone atop the mountain.

Of course, sometimes we get that last part out of the way a little earlier, as a couple of bidders will decide to go nuts early on until one of them gets exhausted and finally gives up. By that point the price is so astronomically high that no one else will touch it, so it doesn't move again, and goes final a few weeks later at that price.

Goldin opens later tonight, so we'll see how quickly it shoots up.

[Touch'EmAll]

Article from today, interesting read. I would imagine nice vintage and pre-war cards to fall into this same category (as art).

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[BobC]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

There's no greater disparity of an approach to business than there is between Brian and Goldin, some people identify with Brian's approach some people identify with Goldins approach, when it comes to pre war I think Brian's approach resonates with more folks.

Exactly why I was saying what I was. There are many people I've heard exclaim they'll never do business with the likes of some sellers/AHs. Also, some business formats/platforms are set up more for the investor types than the true collector types as well. I would classify Goldin as playing more to the investor type, and REA to the collector type. Nothing wrong with either, but the investor type IMO would be much more likely to take advantage of a vault service.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Good question Jim. Honestly, I am not sure. My knee jerk reaction is that the REA 9 should negatively impact the Goldin one, but who knows - maybe people hold off on the REA one knowing they have a second bite on the Goldin one. In my experience, the second one usually goes for less than the first. That said, the cards I bid on are usually much rarer than a 55 Koufax, even in a 9, and they are less “commodity cards”, meaning a thinner overall audience. As a result, by eliminating the winner from the first one, there is usually less competition on the next one and it goes for less.

A great example of this is the t206 Speaker Drum. In May of 2021, Heritage auctioned off a PSA 1 t206 Speaker Drum. I won it for $31,200. Three months later REA auctions another, arguably nicer, PSA 1 t206 Speaker Drum and Luke stole it for $24,600! That is almost certainly because I was not a bidder, having already just “won” one. As an aside, I think there are only 3-5 Speaker Drums, compared to the 25+ psa 9/10 Koufax.

BTW- I am not a player for either Koufax.

surprised you didn't bid on that one too but you make excellent points. I always appreciate your insight, Thanks.