PWCC again F'ing up

G1911 · #1 04-19-2023, 12:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

This hobby is full of contradictions my friend. The card is altered, and was shilled, but damn it he got it to me in just three days so all is well.

If you ship timely, and don't overcharge for postage (still the number one sin in the hobby apparently), the rest don't matter much.

And yeah avoid PWCC and think you're being virtuous, when 80 percent of the others you are dealing with are just as bad.

I get what you mean, but I would posit that there is not much virtue in it sir; I consider it largely selfish and unvirtuous self-interest to not deal with fraud rings, scammers, library thieves, shillers, opinion sellers of demonstrable incompetence, et alia. Lay with a snake, and you risk being bit in more ways than one. Opens myself to risk, and while one is not guilty by association it does not reflect well on or benefit one to so associate, like Catullus' auctioneer.

I suppose it is a low risk version of the same self-interest that drives people to ignore massive fraud rings and conduct business with them. On the other hand I say this from a place of privilege, I've crossed off the top of my want list and nothing left do I feel I really truly 'need' for my poor little collection. And so no REA account, no Heritage, no Probstein bidding, no PWCC, no Memory Lane, no PSA and SGC and Beckett etc. and so on is not so much a sacrifice. Friends, randoms on eBay I don't have reason to think to be crooked, a couple local dealers and some from here I have not seen conducting unethical business practices that would create risk for me. It's also just more fun when the hobby is a lighthearted joy than Faustian dealing to win more registry points.

I'm sure I'll get ripped off eventually anyways...

Republicaninmass · #2 04-19-2023, 07:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G1911

I'm sure I'll get ripped off eventually anyways...

Ignorance is truly bliss. If you never know, then you will keep buying.

The issue I cant wrap my head around is how can people knowingly deal with PWCC and not have that little voice tugging at them asking "what if". On big money cards, where people have liquidated their 401ks and sold assets to purchase cards, they may have put their future and family at peril, and they sleep well at night?

steve B · #3 04-19-2023, 09:39 AM

I don't know about other states, but here the resale tax exempt form needs to be sent each year. It's surprising how many business owners don't know that.

Typically it's let slide though, I used to just give people a reminder when they bought stuff, like "Hey, your resale cert is out of date just send me a new one when you get a chance. "
Never had anyone have a problem with that, but then I didn't tax them.
I had one place get cranky about it, but filled out a new one at the pickup counter and learned they were fussy about the resale forms because they were being audited.

G1911 · #4 04-19-2023, 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

Ignorance is truly bliss. If you never know, then you will keep buying.

The issue I cant wrap my head around is how can people knowingly deal with PWCC and not have that little voice tugging at them asking "what if". On big money cards, where people have liquidated their 401ks and sold assets to purchase cards, they may have put their future and family at peril, and they sleep well at night?

It's the same mentality as the card bro's - 'I'm smarter and I will win the game'. Sometimes they will, and sometimes they won't.

Though I sincerely doubt any of the pumpers advocating for other people to go into debt and literally empty their 401K's to put everything into cards do this themselves. They just need more people to keep buying in so their portfolio rises, and say whatever promotes that.

bobbyw8469 · #5 04-19-2023, 11:18 AM

Quote:

It's just that it is exceptionally broad and obvious in their case and no one can credibly claim that they do not know.

How is it "broad and obvious" in their case??? That is the issue that I have with it. They were just a platform. Same as Ebay. Ebay kicked them off for "shill bidding". PWCC never shill bid a card. The consignors shill bid on their own material. And like someone else said, if you are trying to avoid the hobby due to nefarious characters, you might as well sell your collection now. Like the good book said, let he who has no sin cast the first stone.

bnorth · #6 04-19-2023, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

How is it "broad and obvious" in their case??? That is the issue that I have with it. They were just a platform. Same as Ebay. Ebay kicked them off for "shill bidding". PWCC never shill bid a card. The consignors shill bid on their own material. And like someone else said, if you are trying to avoid the hobby due to nefarious characters, you might as well sell your collection now. Like the good book said, let he who has no sin cast the first stone.

That is your opinion and mine is different. I used to care and watched for shill bidding. 3 of the biggest card sellers all shared the same group of shill bidders and it was beyond obvious if you actually cared and watched their auctions. The only really sad part to me was one of those sellers used to be known as being extremely honest, now not so much.

Peter_Spaeth · #7 04-19-2023, 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

How is it "broad and obvious" in their case??? That is the issue that I have with it. They were just a platform. Same as Ebay. Ebay kicked them off for "shill bidding". PWCC never shill bid a card. The consignors shill bid on their own material. And like someone else said, if you are trying to avoid the hobby due to nefarious characters, you might as well sell your collection now. Like the good book said, let he who has no sin cast the first stone.

PWCC was a lot more than just a platform. That's like saying Madoff was just an investment adviser. That said, I absolutely agree much of the hobby is tainted.

G1911 · #8 04-19-2023, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

How is it "broad and obvious" in their case???

Are you seriously unaware of the literally thousands of examples from Blowout, and the connections between many of the altered cards and Brent's buying accounts? I'm fairly confident you are not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

That is the issue that I have with it. They were just a platform. Same as Ebay. Ebay kicked them off for "shill bidding". PWCC never shill bid a card. The consignors shill bid on their own material.

Just a platform? False. They actively engaged in fraud themselves. Again, there are numerous examples of this, including with serial numbered unique cards. You surely know this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

And like someone else said, if you are trying to avoid the hobby due to nefarious characters, you might as well sell your collection now. Like the good book said, let he who has no sin cast the first stone.

Who said anything about avoiding the hobby due to nefarious characters? I actively participate, I just don't deal with people I know or reasonably suspect to be engaging in fraud or unethical business practices. I even named names as some examples, besides PWCC, unlike anyone else. Not a single person is or has argued that PWCC alone is guilty - they are just the biggest in the last 10-15 years with a very, very large body of evidence against them that all of you are well aware of, though you may pretend not to be because it makes your argument harder.

I would love to know what sin, in the context of hobby fraud, I have committed. Please let me know! Who have I defrauded? When? I cast stones at fraudsters. Most people do. It is only here in hobby land that being against fraud, regardless of who the perpetrator is, is unpopular and gets people going because so many of you are in bed with them but still want to mount some moral high horse.

perezfan · #9 04-19-2023, 12:43 PM

Amen to that.

Johnny630 · #10 04-19-2023, 12:45 PM

If they want cake let them eat cake that's it. Nobody's mind is going to be changed.

bobbyw8469 · #11 04-19-2023, 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G1911

Are you seriously unaware of the literally thousands of examples from Blowout, and the connections between many of the altered cards and Brent's buying accounts? I'm fairly confident you are not.

Just a platform? False. They actively engaged in fraud themselves. Again, there are numerous examples of this, including with serial numbered unique cards. You surely know this.

Who said anything about avoiding the hobby due to nefarious characters? I actively participate, I just don't deal with people I know or reasonably suspect to be engaging in fraud or unethical business practices. I even named names as some examples, besides PWCC, unlike anyone else. Not a single person is or has argued that PWCC alone is guilty - they are just the biggest in the last 10-15 years with a very, very large body of evidence against them that all of you are well aware of, though you may pretend not to be because it makes your argument harder.

I would love to know what sin, in the context of hobby fraud, I have committed. Please let me know! Who have I defrauded? When? I cast stones at fraudsters. Most people do. It is only here in hobby land that being against fraud, regardless of who the perpetrator is, is unpopular and gets people going because so many of you are in bed with them but still want to mount some moral high horse.

Fraud can be seen as anything. Ever taken nylon to card? Fraud. Ever soaked a card? Fraud. Ever cracked out a card to get a higher grade? Fraud. There are different degrees here. Having a holier than thou attitude is hard to do. Even Mother Theresa spit on the sidewalk once.

bobbyw8469 · #12 04-19-2023, 01:52 PM

And no. I don't go to Blowout. I come here. I like the guys here. I even met a member that lives near me. I try to do the right thing. I treat others how I would like myself to be treated. And no, I don't consign to PWCC nor do I buy from them. Have I consigned in the past? Sure. Do I wish for him to be in an orange jumpsuit? I'll save that judgement for the more vindictive members here.

G1911 · #13 04-19-2023, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

Fraud can be seen as anything.

No, fraud is not an indefinable word. Some of us are fully capable of being reasonable and understanding key terms. You can choose to pretend everything under the sun is fraud and the word means nothing so that you can defend your buddies, but that's an extremely idiotic argument.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

Ever taken nylon to card? Fraud. Ever soaked a card? Fraud. Ever cracked out a card to get a higher grade? Fraud.

I have done none of these. I have never submitted a card for grading at all, and already called out all the major grading firms as on my list of companies I don't deal with.

Even you must be surely aware of the massive difference between a massive fraud ring of shilling and trimmed cards without disclosure provably repeated over and over and over again vs. cracking a card one thinks to be under graded to sub again. Even if we accept your claims here, it's like since smacking someone and stabbing someone is a form of assault, they are both the same thing and we can't judge.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

There are different degrees here.

Okay, you are aware!

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

Having a holier than thou attitude is hard to do. Even Mother Theresa spit on the sidewalk once.

As I said, it is largely out of self-interest that I won't deal with fraudsters. It's not a high moral ground; it's what most people do out of basic common sense. Do you go to a store that you have seen commit fraud or a competitor you haven't observed committing fraud? Who the hell picks the former? Again, it is only in hobby land, ridden with so many of you scamming or in bed with those who are and emotionally engaged in their success that a very common sense standard of not doing business with people known to commit fraud is upsetting and a moral high ground.

If you want to do business with PWCC, few would complain. I won't feel sympathy for you if you get ripped but I wouldn't even criticize that. The criticism comes in when people like you make up claims that are complete lies and deny obvious facts because they find it inconvenient to their bullshit.

Peter_Spaeth · #14 04-19-2023, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

Fraud can be seen as anything. Ever taken nylon to card? Fraud. Ever soaked a card? Fraud. Ever cracked out a card to get a higher grade? Fraud. There are different degrees here. Having a holier than thou attitude is hard to do. Even Mother Theresa spit on the sidewalk once.

That's really poor logic. That's like saying going 56 in a 55 zone is the same as going 100. It just isn't. Brent wsa probably going 135, although he was or maybe still is far from alone.

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