PWCC again F'ing up

[G1911]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

How is it "broad and obvious" in their case???

Are you seriously unaware of the literally thousands of examples from Blowout, and the connections between many of the altered cards and Brent's buying accounts? I'm fairly confident you are not.

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

That is the issue that I have with it. They were just a platform. Same as Ebay. Ebay kicked them off for "shill bidding". PWCC never shill bid a card. The consignors shill bid on their own material.

Just a platform? False. They actively engaged in fraud themselves. Again, there are numerous examples of this, including with serial numbered unique cards. You surely know this.

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

And like someone else said, if you are trying to avoid the hobby due to nefarious characters, you might as well sell your collection now. Like the good book said, let he who has no sin cast the first stone.

Who said anything about avoiding the hobby due to nefarious characters? I actively participate, I just don't deal with people I know or reasonably suspect to be engaging in fraud or unethical business practices. I even named names as some examples, besides PWCC, unlike anyone else. Not a single person is or has argued that PWCC alone is guilty - they are just the biggest in the last 10-15 years with a very, very large body of evidence against them that all of you are well aware of, though you may pretend not to be because it makes your argument harder.

I would love to know what sin, in the context of hobby fraud, I have committed. Please let me know! Who have I defrauded? When? I cast stones at fraudsters. Most people do. It is only here in hobby land that being against fraud, regardless of who the perpetrator is, is unpopular and gets people going because so many of you are in bed with them but still want to mount some moral high horse.

[perezfan]

Amen to that.

[Johnny630]

If they want cake let them eat cake that's it. Nobody's mind is going to be changed.

[Lorewalker]

Dunno about most of you but if I could overlook someone engaging in decades of serial card doctoring, serial shill bidding activities and perpetual lying, scheming and market manipulation, I think I would be ok with a temporary IT issue that causes my invoice to be a tad f#(%ed up. This is not meant as a criticism of the OP because he is really in the majority in the hobby. Maybe it is the rest of us who are intolerant of the overwhelming fraud in the hobby to just zip it.

Personally speaking, my view on businesses or people like Brent is that I will never accept what they do and will attempt to avoid them at all costs knowing that it is not always possible. This is what works for me but each of us is different and has to draw lines that we each can justify.

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by G1911

Are you seriously unaware of the literally thousands of examples from Blowout, and the connections between many of the altered cards and Brent's buying accounts? I'm fairly confident you are not.




Just a platform? False. They actively engaged in fraud themselves. Again, there are numerous examples of this, including with serial numbered unique cards. You surely know this.



Who said anything about avoiding the hobby due to nefarious characters? I actively participate, I just don't deal with people I know or reasonably suspect to be engaging in fraud or unethical business practices. I even named names as some examples, besides PWCC, unlike anyone else. Not a single person is or has argued that PWCC alone is guilty - they are just the biggest in the last 10-15 years with a very, very large body of evidence against them that all of you are well aware of, though you may pretend not to be because it makes your argument harder.

I would love to know what sin, in the context of hobby fraud, I have committed. Please let me know! Who have I defrauded? When? I cast stones at fraudsters. Most people do. It is only here in hobby land that being against fraud, regardless of who the perpetrator is, is unpopular and gets people going because so many of you are in bed with them but still want to mount some moral high horse.

Fraud can be seen as anything. Ever taken nylon to card? Fraud. Ever soaked a card? Fraud. Ever cracked out a card to get a higher grade? Fraud. There are different degrees here. Having a holier than thou attitude is hard to do. Even Mother Theresa spit on the sidewalk once.

[bobbyw8469]

And no. I don't go to Blowout. I come here. I like the guys here. I even met a member that lives near me. I try to do the right thing. I treat others how I would like myself to be treated. And no, I don't consign to PWCC nor do I buy from them. Have I consigned in the past? Sure. Do I wish for him to be in an orange jumpsuit? I'll save that judgement for the more vindictive members here.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

And no. I don't go to Blowout. I come here. I like the guys here. I even met a member that lives near me. I try to do the right thing. I treat others how I would like myself to be treated. And no, I don't consign to PWCC nor do I buy from them. Have I consigned in the past? Sure. Do I wish for him to be in an orange jumpsuit? I'll save that judgement for the more vindictive members here.

"I refuse to look at the publicly available evidence, thus they are not guilty because I won't look at it" logic. Amazing

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by G1911

"I refuse to look at the publicly available evidence, thus they are not guilty because I won't look at it" logic. Amazing

Uhhh....that isn't what I said. Not at all. I'm just not gonna pile on and say they are a criminal just cause everyone else is saying so. I have not heard their side of the story. I bet you think Trump is a criminal too.

[ALR-bishop]

Oh, oh. The trump card has been played 😊

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by ALR-bishop

Oh, oh. The trump card has been played 😊

Invoking Trump should be the equivalent of invoking a certain German politician, which in the early days of the Usenet groups was grounds for ending a thread -- Godwin's law I believe.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

Uhhh....that isn't what I said. Not at all. I'm just not gonna pile on and say they are a criminal just cause everyone else is saying so. I have not heard their side of the story. I bet you think Trump is a criminal too.

Then go read the mountains of evidence publicly available and come back and explain how your previous statements make any sense and accord with the evidence. I'd love to hear it.

Politics has nothing to do with this. Can we not make this about Trump? I know everyone likes to make everything in the world about him but it is completely irrelevant.

[Snowman]

I wonder if this is only for people in certain states? I'm in CA and have a resale certificate on file with them and I buy cards from them every week. I have not had sales taxes added to any of my invoices.

Also, I'd like to take this opportunity to thank those of you who are on board the PWCC=evil train, as it allows me to occasionally find some good deals there... For now.

PWCC has been growing though, not shrinking. They're doing more and more volume every month. It's the best auction platform in the hobby by a country mile, from a user experience, in my opinion.

I understand why you guys hate them though. I just disagree with your conclusions based on the evidence presented against them (for the most part).

[G1911]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

Fraud can be seen as anything.

No, fraud is not an indefinable word. Some of us are fully capable of being reasonable and understanding key terms. You can choose to pretend everything under the sun is fraud and the word means nothing so that you can defend your buddies, but that's an extremely idiotic argument.

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

Ever taken nylon to card? Fraud. Ever soaked a card? Fraud. Ever cracked out a card to get a higher grade? Fraud.

I have done none of these. I have never submitted a card for grading at all, and already called out all the major grading firms as on my list of companies I don't deal with.

Even you must be surely aware of the massive difference between a massive fraud ring of shilling and trimmed cards without disclosure provably repeated over and over and over again vs. cracking a card one thinks to be under graded to sub again. Even if we accept your claims here, it's like since smacking someone and stabbing someone is a form of assault, they are both the same thing and we can't judge.

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

There are different degrees here.

Okay, you are aware!

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

Having a holier than thou attitude is hard to do. Even Mother Theresa spit on the sidewalk once.

As I said, it is largely out of self-interest that I won't deal with fraudsters. It's not a high moral ground; it's what most people do out of basic common sense. Do you go to a store that you have seen commit fraud or a competitor you haven't observed committing fraud? Who the hell picks the former? Again, it is only in hobby land, ridden with so many of you scamming or in bed with those who are and emotionally engaged in their success that a very common sense standard of not doing business with people known to commit fraud is upsetting and a moral high ground.

If you want to do business with PWCC, few would complain. I won't feel sympathy for you if you get ripped but I wouldn't even criticize that. The criticism comes in when people like you make up claims that are complete lies and deny obvious facts because they find it inconvenient to their bullshit.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

Fraud can be seen as anything. Ever taken nylon to card? Fraud. Ever soaked a card? Fraud. Ever cracked out a card to get a higher grade? Fraud. There are different degrees here. Having a holier than thou attitude is hard to do. Even Mother Theresa spit on the sidewalk once.

That's really poor logic. That's like saying going 56 in a 55 zone is the same as going 100. It just isn't. Brent wsa probably going 135, although he was or maybe still is far from alone.