PSA Card Guarantee

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

I think between what could be forensically proven, coupled with the egregious nature of some the alterations, their so-called expert, regardless how experienced, would be shown to be either a liar or an idiot. Whatever the case, if I was a guy who stood to lose the value of most of his collection and the loss was at the level that warranted a lawsuit, I would file it.

How do you forensically prove anything with the card in a holder? And don't you void the guarantee if you remove it? Maybe there could be some stipulated procedure but I don't know.

And I am not sure you could show a loss. The Wagner is almost universally conceded to be first sheet cut (rendering it AUTH even before Mastro) and then trimmed. It's ROI is astronomical. Who has lost any money in the scandal? You don't like your altered card, just sell it for a profit. Duty to mitigate, remember.

[benjulmag]

Presumably the instance in which someone would have the economic incentive to bring an action is when he cannot sell it for a profit. Granted that day may never come because the current market does not seem to care that cards that are selling for hundreds of thousands of dollars are in reality worth a fraction of that, but it still blows my mind that people do that. As was noted by one of the posters in the blowout thread, that person is very distraught that his mint card is altered, and likely will view graded cards differently going forward.

And too I would think that even if it required at some point taking the card out of the holder to do the forensic examination, which I'm not sure is required in all instances, once that was done and the card was shown to be a fake, any trier of fact would look at PSA's expert in a different light. I don't think juries like it when people get screwed and believe it was done in bad faith. And too, I'm not sure how well it will be received by a court that the only way I could mitigate my damages is by withholding material information from the person I would be selling it to.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

Presumably the instance in which someone would have the economic incentive to bring an action is when he cannot sell it for a profit. Granted that day may never come because the current market does not seem to care that cards that are selling for hundreds of thousands of dollars are in reality worth a fraction of that, but it still blows my mind that people do that. As was noted by one of the posters in the blowout thread, that person is very distraught that his mint card is altered, and likely will view graded cards differently going forward.

And too I would think that even if it required at some point taking the card out of the thread to do the forensic examination, which I'm not sure is required in all instances, once that was done and the card was shown to be a fake, any trier of fact would look at PSA's expert in a different light. I don't think juries like it when people get screwed and believe it was done in bad faith. And too, I'm not sure how well it will be received by a court that the only way I could mitigate my damages is by withholding material information from the person I would be selling it to.

IMO you could probably disclose it in most cases and do just fine. You and I are from the generation where it mattered, but I don't think it does any more to a huge swath of the hoibby.

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

IMO you could probably disclose it in most cases and do just fine. You and I are from the generation where it mattered, but I don't think it does any more to a huge swath of the hoibby.

Nailed it

[JeremyW]

"How do you forensically prove anything with the card in a holder?"

They do it all the time at Blowout. Obvious trims & recoloring. Is that not forensic?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by JeremyW

"How do you forensically prove anything with the card in a holder?"

They do it all the time at Blowout. Obvious trims & recoloring. Is that not forensic?

In a trial, who is the collector going to call as a witness, an anonymous poster from BODA? In court it has to be done under strict rules of evidence. Different animal altogether. You could try it through an expert I suppose. In my opinion this card is the same card as the card in this online photo which I've never seen, and it appears to have been trimmed after that photo was taken. Good luck with that.

[JeremyW]

The photo evidence is so obvious. Does it take a jury to confirm?

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

In a trial, who is the collector going to call as a witness, an anonymous poster from BODA? In court it has to be done under strict rules of evidence. Different animal altogether. You could try it through an expert I suppose. In my opinion this card is the same card as the card in this online photo which I've never seen, and it appears to have been trimmed after that photo was taken. Good luck with that.

Is there a good explanation of those rules that a non lawyer can easily understand?

To me, I'm thinking you'd have provenance on an earlier image. And for some, fairly clear identifiers.
Like
This card with PSA serial number X was shown in this image when it was offered on x date by this particular seller.
Theres a unique wood fiber inclusion visible just here further identifying the card.
That image is X dpi, making that fiber x distance from the nearest edge


This image is a new image created on x date, and at the same dpi as the original. Note the unique fiber inclusion is now Y distance from the nearest edge.

This is the actual card, as shown.

That could be done for all edges and overall size.

Would it not be allowed?

[doug.goodman]

The opinion sellers DO NOT CARE about any of these conversations, or about Blowout or about YOU or about YOUR CARDS.

Nothing has changed from the beginning of their existence.

They lied then, and they lie now, surprised!

The only thing that the average individual can do is to can be done is to stop using them, and obviously that isn't going to happen.

For those of you who use them, enjoy collecting your plastic slabs and the fantasies that many of them contain. Nothing wrong with enjoying your fantasies.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

How do you forensically prove anything with the card in a holder? And don't you void the guarantee if you remove it? Maybe there could be some stipulated procedure but I don't know.

And I am not sure you could show a loss. The Wagner is almost universally conceded to be first sheet cut (rendering it AUTH even before Mastro) and then trimmed. It's ROI is astronomical. Who has lost any money in the scandal? You don't like your altered card, just sell it for a profit. Duty to mitigate, remember.

I look at that the same way I looked at my employer telling me to simply palm the fake 10 I'd taken off on someone else. (I covered the 10 and kept it. )

Can a duty to mitigate be a defense for fraud? I'm thinking no, but stuff can be weird....

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by steve B

I look at that the same way I looked at my employer telling me to simply palm the fake 10 I'd taken off on someone else. (I covered the 10 and kept it. )

Can a duty to mitigate be a defense for fraud? I'm thinking no, but stuff can be weird....

No, it's applicable to a contract claim. But a claim based on the guarantee would not be a fraud claim. Although now that I think about it, the way it's worded, I don't think there would be a duty to mitigate.