1921 Herpolsheimers graded w/o mark

[oldjudge]

Todd—Has anyone ever come across a newspaper article advertising these cards? I know articles were found for various M101-4/5 backs and, if found, that would certainly clear things up.

[Brian Van Horn]

The one other detail left out that I am amused by is that 1 Monroe is left off the back of the card for the address. I know the store was popular in Grand Rapids, Michigan, but.......

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn

The one other detail left out that I am amused by is that 1 Monroe is left off the back of the card for the address. I know the store was popular in Grand Rapids, Michigan, but.......

Herpolsheimer did not have its address on the 1916 cards either. Then again, neither did department stores Block & Kuhl, Burgess-Nash, Gimbels and Everybody's. Really irrelevant.

Todd—Has anyone ever come across a newspaper article advertising these cards? I know articles were found for various M101-4/5 backs and, if found, that would certainly clear things up.

Jay, I have not seen much of anything for Herpolsheimer's store in 1921, but that isn't surprising. They only had one or two ads that I've seen from 1916. Also, the department store ads from 1916 were all the marketing idea of Felix Mendelsohn, who no doubt created the format. Several of these department stores used virtually identical ads and verbiage. As I mentioned before, it looks like Herpolsheimer's was the lone department store advertising these cards in 1921.

PAT. The articles you posted are of a different Herpolsheimer in Nebraska-- a brother of the patriarch from Grand Rapids.

Here is the ad I found for the 1916 cards, a full page from the Grand Rapids Herald. Note there does not appear to be a store address-- kind of a shame with all those bargain prices that they forgot to tell people how to find the store.

[Brian Van Horn]

nolemmings:

"Herpolsheimer did not have its address on the 1916 cards either. Then again, neither did department stores Block & Kuhl, Burgess-Nash, Gimbels and Everybody's. Really irrelevant, but if it amuses you, well, different strokes I guess."

LOL!

Reference points attached. Even though Herpolsheimer's was popular, out of courtesy, like Holsum Bread, you would have your address not just your floor.

We are not talking about the M101-4/5 versions.

[nolemmings]

Brian, your arguments are borderline ridiculous. Some unknown dealer a quarter century ago with an honest demeanor told you that these were fake, and the design in your view is inferior, and the lack of a street address on an advertiser's card points to a fake, even when that advertiser is shown to not use its address in advertising for years. I can just imagine the folks at Herpolsheimer saying "we need the street address on our cards-- we made that horrible mistake five years ago of not including it so let's make sure people know where we are". Seriously? Did you ever think maybe its just a matter of preference? Why no address for Clark's, Haffner's and Gassler's? Fakes?

Have you held one of these in your hand? The dot patterns, fonts, card stock, toning, etc. all exemplify the "real" cards from 1920/21. So you do think they are fake altogether or just fake backs on real fronts?

As I said, you can discount people's opinions as you see fit, mine especially. But from that old thread we can see that Dan McKee, Frank Ward, and several other very well respected collectors here have held them and concluded they are real. I really think that your casting aspersions on an ongoing auction based on such flimsy "evidence" does no good, and that's putting it lightly.

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn

nolemmings:

"Herpolsheimer did not have its address on the 1916 cards either. Then again, neither did department stores Block & Kuhl, Burgess-Nash, Gimbels and Everybody's. Really irrelevant, but if it amuses you, well, different strokes I guess."

LOL!

Reference points attached. Even though Herpolsheimer's was popular, out of courtesy, like Holsum Bread, you would have your address not just your floor.

We are not talking about the M101-4/5 versions.

[Brian Van Horn]

I have held them. The guy who originally had them at a show indicated the prices on the back were because the cards weren't original. If you can't accept honesty, I can't help. No offense. They are fakes.

[hcv123]

The attached card will be offered in the next Memory Lane auction. I'm not super familiar with the history on these, but this example was a lone example from a large eclectic collection. I see no evidence of any kind of erasure. It was originally mislabeled by PSA without the Herpolsheimer designation and was recently corrected. If there was only a single Collins example from the original find and a single example from the recent find, then this was not from either.

[molenick]

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn

I have held them. The guy who originally had them at a show indicated the prices on the back were because the cards weren't original. If you can't accept honesty, I can't help. No offense. They are fakes.

Even if those cards were fake, I am not clear how this impacts the separate group of cards found 20 years later. I would think that if someone created a fake batch of cards, they would not decide to introduce them to the public in two groupings that far apart.

I believe you are being honest in reporting what the dealer said, but I am unclear what "the prices on the back were because the cards weren't original" means.

Was it that he (the dealer) wrote the prices on the back because he thought the cards weren't original (so it didn't matter that he wrote on the cards, since they were fake anyway)?

Was it that the prices were low because the cards were not original?

Or was it that when he came into possession of the cards they already had prices on the back, which he took as an indicator that the cards were not original?

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Herpolsheimer did not have its address on the 1916 cards either. Then again, neither did department stores Block & Kuhl, Burgess-Nash, Gimbels and Everybody's. Really irrelevant.



Jay, I have not seen much of anything for Herpolsheimer's store in 1921, but that isn't surprising. They only had one or two ads that I've seen from 1916. Also, the department store ads from 1916 were all the marketing idea of Felix Mendelsohn, who no doubt created the format. Several of these department stores used virtually identical ads and verbiage. As I mentioned before, it looks like Herpolsheimer's was the lone department store advertising these cards in 1921.

PAT. The articles you posted are of a different Herpolsheimer in Nebraska-- a brother of the patriarch from Grand Rapids.

Here is the ad I found for the 1916 cards, a full page from the Grand Rapids Herald. Note there does not appear to be a store address-- kind of a shame with all those bargain prices that they forgot to tell people how to find the store.

Yes I know that Todd. He sold his interest in the Grand Rapids store to his brother and opened the store in Lincoln.

[Brian Van Horn]

Patrick,

Thank you for the advertisement from 1916 and Happy Thanksgiving.

Brian Van Horn

[dariushou]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Herpolsheimer did not have its address on the 1916 cards either. Then again, neither did department stores Block & Kuhl, Burgess-Nash, Gimbels and Everybody's. Really irrelevant.



Jay, I have not seen much of anything for Herpolsheimer's store in 1921, but that isn't surprising. They only had one or two ads that I've seen from 1916. Also, the department store ads from 1916 were all the marketing idea of Felix Mendelsohn, who no doubt created the format. Several of these department stores used virtually identical ads and verbiage. As I mentioned before, it looks like Herpolsheimer's was the lone department store advertising these cards in 1921.

PAT. The articles you posted are of a different Herpolsheimer in Nebraska-- a brother of the patriarch from Grand Rapids.

Here is the ad I found for the 1916 cards, a full page from the Grand Rapids Herald. Note there does not appear to be a store address-- kind of a shame with all those bargain prices that they forgot to tell people how to find the store.

Has there been an advertisement found for the 1921 Herpolsheimer cards? It would seem that the company would have advertised it like they did in 1916. Also, have advertisements been found for all other issues of that era or is it very common not to advertise the cards. I will admit I know very little about cards of that era and even less so about how cards were advertised. Also, i'm no expert on newspaper research either.

Whatever the case may be, I have no skin in this game, but was curious about those questions. Having no advertisement does not mean the cards are fake, but it does raise the question as to why not, especially sine they did in 1916. I'm not saying they are fake so please don't bite my head off.

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by dariushou

Has there been an advertisement found for the 1921 Herpolsheimer cards? It would seem that the company would have advertised it like they did in 1916. Also, have advertisements been found for all other issues of that era or is it very common not to advertise the cards. I will admit I know very little about cards of that era and even less so about how cards were advertised. Also, i'm no expert on newspaper research either.

Whatever the case may be, I have no skin in this game, but was curious about those questions. Having no advertisement does not mean the cards are fake, but it does raise the question as to why not, especially sine they did in 1916. I'm not saying they are fake so please don't bite my head off.

I am unaware of any advertising for the cards, but that is not surprising for the following reasons:

1. I believe it is the exception rather than the rule for baseball cards being advertised in 1920's newspapers.

2. It can be real spotty finding digitalized newspapers for some areas, period. I don’t recall how I came upon the ad from 1916, but notice that is from the Grand Rapids Herald. It is difficult to find any copies of that paper from those years. No doubt the digital archives will improve and be coordinated over time, but for now it can be real hit and miss. As an odd example, I have looked for advertising for Weil Baking in 1916, 1917 and 1921 (they issued the Holsum Bread cards), and can’t even seem to find New Orleans papers, much less relevant information.

3. The advertising from 1916 was all the brainchild of Felix Mendelsohn, who was behind the m101-4/5 style cards. While he might have had some connection to the 1921 cards, he was not the publisher.

4. As noted earlier, there was tumult in the Herpolsheimer family at this time, resulting from the deaths of two top company leaders in 1920. Their advertising and marketing plans may not have been high priority and/or deciding who made those plans may have been internally disputed or unorganized.

[RCMcKenzie]

I wish people had debated the bsf like this. I'm bidding on the LOTG cards fwiw.

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

I wish people had debated the bsf like this. I'm bidding on the LOTG cards fwiw.

I wish you the best.

[CW]

Originally Posted by dariushou

Has there been an advertisement found for the 1921 Herpolsheimer cards?

One might consider the baseball card as the advertisement itself.

[Brian Van Horn]

Gentlemen,

I apologize, but I forgot about my post in this on December 24, 2004 at 7:47 a.m. I forgot, as noted in the post, the dealer indicated to me the cards were produced in the 1970's. Here is the post of messages:

https://www.net54baseball.com/showth...=Herpolsheimer

[molenick]

I am not sure what other sites there are, but I searched for Herpolsheimer in newspapers.com for 1916-1921. I got 82 matches, mostly from the Belding [Michigan] Banner, and mostly ads for a dentist located "opposite Herpolsheimer's".

I would add that if the cards were distributed at the store, putting the address on the back of the cards may not have been necessary. Also, if it is a place used as a landmark in someone else's ad, it was probably a place people in town knew the location of.

[Pat R]

Here are a couple of newspaper clippings I have on the origin of the Herpolsheimer store(s). I have some other clippings that I will post later.

Herpolsheimer The_Lincoln_Star_Sun__Jan_1__1922_.jpg

Herpolsheimer The_Lincoln_Star_Sun__Sep_26__1920_.jpg